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Old March 17, 2012, 04:13   #11
Mars
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How about a double vision/drunkenness trap, which makes you see all monsters double but you don't know which is the real one. Kinda like hallucination but less random. You can even opt to double all visible features (except maybe plain floor and walls).
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Old March 17, 2012, 08:59   #12
Djabanete
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My take on deep-level traps: the player is expected to have reliable and repeatable Detect Traps effects by this point in the game. The presence of Summon Monster traps and Trap Doors already enforces this. So what do you change by making traps nastier? Finding/avoiding/disarming* traps is trivial for high-level characters, so just making a trap insanely dangerous (i.e. drop all equipment) or annoying as hell (i.e. spread inventory throughout dungeon level) accomplishes very little, except perhaps occasionally causing someone to rage quit the game for various reasons.

*And by disarming, I mean using foolproof methods, not the "disarm" command.

But the fact that deep-level traps are expected to be known/visible to the character has an upside as well; they can be tactically relevant. Instead of going to extremes in designing preposterously lethal traps, I'd just try designing traps that could have useful applications in addition to being dangerous. My favorites (not all of them my ideas, I'm just collecting them):

Pandemonium trap (polymorph all monsters in sight)
Earthquake trap (small radius)
Disintegration trap (removes all walls in small radius)
Inferno/Thunderstorm trap (huge fire/lightning ball centered around player)
Greater Demon trap (summons a bunch of U's)
Ancient Dragon trap (summons a bunch of D's)
Greater Undead trap (summons a bunch of W's, V's, L's)

Good luck!
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Old March 17, 2012, 10:33   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djabanete View Post
But the fact that deep-level traps are expected to be known/visible to the character has an upside as well; they can be tactically relevant. Instead of going to extremes in designing preposterously lethal traps, I'd just try designing traps that could have useful applications in addition to being dangerous.
A nice addition to gameplay, +1
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Old March 17, 2012, 12:27   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djabanete View Post
My take on deep-level traps: the player is expected to have reliable and repeatable Detect Traps effects by this point in the game.
This is true in the status quo, but probably not when I'm through with traps. Nevertheless, I agree that deep traps don't have to be lethal; just interesting.
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Old March 17, 2012, 14:41   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djabanete View Post
The presence of Summon Monster traps and Trap Doors already enforces this.
I think the idea that trapdoors require flawless trap detection is incorrect.

For example, in Sil there is no flawless trap detection, just a perception-dependent chance in a small perception-dependent radius (1, 2, or 3). Moreover trapdoors (or false floors as they are now called) are much nastier in Sil. They do significant damage, and this is quite a bit harder to heal. They isolate you from the stairs and this is a serious problem since escapes are so hard to come by in Sil. They make you permanently lose any artefacts on the current level (there is no preserve mode in Sil). Interestingly, there are almost no complaints, even before 1.0.2 when traps were a bit too hard to detect.

However, perhaps the reason trapdoors are OK in Sil is that they cause interesting tactical situations (you are in an unmapped level, cut off from the stairs). In Angband, it is more like scrapping the current level with no interesting aspect. If so and if they are just frustrating, the answer is either to make them interesting, or to get rid of them. Not to force perfect trap detection.
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Old March 17, 2012, 15:32   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djabanete View Post
But the fact that deep-level traps are expected to be known/visible to the character has an upside as well; they can be tactically relevant. Instead of going to extremes in designing preposterously lethal traps, I'd just try designing traps that could have useful applications in addition to being dangerous.
+2

Outright harmful effects and devices
  • Dyslexia: Temporarily lose the ability to read, or make reading more time-consuming
  • Bad luck: Temporarily greater chances of failure, healing potions heal below average, accidentaly drop your weapon in combat...
  • Invasion teleporter: Teleports (OOD) monsters into the town. You will need to defeat them all to lift the curfew and regain access to the shops.
  • False memories: Gain negative experience from killing opponents etc. on a fixed number of occasions
  • Magic time bomb: Places a bomb in an unexplored area of the dungeon. If you fail to find and disarm the bomb in time, it causes massive destruction within a certain radius, on the entire floor or even anihilate anything and everything on the same floor. Trigger optionally to be placed right at the entrance of a (particularly lucrative) level, to make Detect Trap useless.
  • Self-destruction: Same as above, but unstoppable

Ambivalent effects
  • Reinforcements: Populates the entire level anew
  • Banishment: Transfers you into a foreign dimension from where you need to fight your way out (weird level design, no WoR...). Guaranteed reward if you survive.
  • Polymorph self: Temporarily polymorphs you into a random playable race
  • Mind node: Detect all (non-soulless) opponents within a certain radius, but also inform them about your position
  • Mandos' back door / Death's door: Revive a random unique (without item drops?) and make him or her appear in the vicinity
  • Malign Gateway: Open one or several magic portals from where a number of OOD opponents emerge
  • Clone self: Creates a hostile clone of yourself
  • Smile of fate: "Improves" the current level feeling
  • Playtesting time: Temporarily grants remote access to your game to a DevTeam member, who will gladly use your character for experiments
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Old March 17, 2012, 15:59   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by half View Post
I think the idea that trapdoors require flawless trap detection is incorrect.

For example, in Sil there is no flawless trap detection, just a perception-dependent chance in a small perception-dependent radius (1, 2, or 3). Moreover trapdoors (or false floors as they are now called) are much nastier in Sil. They do significant damage, and this is quite a bit harder to heal. They isolate you from the stairs and this is a serious problem since escapes are so hard to come by in Sil. They make you permanently lose any artefacts on the current level (there is no preserve mode in Sil). Interestingly, there are almost no complaints, even before 1.0.2 when traps were a bit too hard to detect.

However, perhaps the reason trapdoors are OK in Sil is that they cause interesting tactical situations (you are in an unmapped level, cut off from the stairs). In Angband, it is more like scrapping the current level with no interesting aspect. If so and if they are just frustrating, the answer is either to make them interesting, or to get rid of them. Not to force perfect trap detection.
My point wasn't so much that a game has to provide failsafe detection (I think your approach in Sil is successful), as that in a game like Angband where that detection is easily accessible, it makes no sense for people not to use it. Unless traps are overhauled in Angband, it's safe to assume anyone beyond a certain depth won't accidentally step on a trap except by inattention or mistyping.
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Old March 17, 2012, 16:14   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djabanete View Post
Unless traps are overhauled in Angband, it's safe to assume anyone beyond a certain depth won't accidentally step on a trap except by inattention or mistyping.
Traps *are* being overhauled in Angband (well, in v4), and for exactly this reason. Traps should be relevant and tactically interesting at every depth, not some minor annoyance that requires you to press a few extra keys every minute or so. Some traps -- the most lethal ones -- will always be visible. Others will be so well-hidden that it is unlikely you will find them unless you have optimized for searching. Anyway, see the other trap thread for a fuller list of changes to come

Thanks for all the interesting ideas, everyone, and keep them coming! I'll be adding some of these this weekend and pushing them out to v4 along with some trap bugfixes.
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Old March 17, 2012, 18:23   #19
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Time, as a trap effect. Everybody hate time hound and with good reason, because aside from dealing some nasty raw damage the side effects inflicted often bypass the characters insurance, his sustains.

Time, as a trap, could also be throughly unpredictable as to it's effects. Drain XP, Drain Stats, Stasis (paralysis), Amnesia, Confusion, Hallucination, Stunning, Cuts, Fear could all be imaginatively attributed to Time in one way or another.

Obviously it should be a rare trap, also a deep trap, certainly deeper than typical time breathers, since irresistible status ailments as described above could easily lead to instant death. I'd give something like this a native depth of below DL100 (maybe DL120), meaning that it could appear in deep vaults, but probably not in the ordinary dungeon at less than 5000' (if my understanding of native depths as applied to vaults is concerned).
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Old March 24, 2012, 22:31   #20
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For the hell of it, I made a spreadsheet with all current traps, and all the new suggestions (except for repeats).

I also added some of my own suggestions.

gravity point: all players/monsters must save or be drawn one square closer each turn

repulsion point: all players/monsters must save or be pushed back one square (taking damage if the wall is in the way)

darken level: all perm-light is removed from the level.

heal: Heals player or monster 10% of Max HP upon entering square.

Permanentify: Make all walls in area of effect permanent. passwall monsters are moved to open squares.

Anchoring: no teleportation within area of effect (into or out of)

Shatter: shatters all potions within area of effect

acquirement: creates a great item on the floor (if player) or places in inventory (if monster)

boost HP: boosts max HP. Also heals by same amount if the activator is a monster. Timed effect.
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