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Old February 6, 2015, 10:22   #61
Timo Pietilš
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogatyr View Post
Of course, Timo's claim is clearly hyperbole
No it is not. I can win every game I play. The difference between me and you is obviously that you take risks, while I don't. Angband is numbers game, even a slight chance, when repeated often enough, will kill you. If action has even a slight chance of getting you killed, I don't take that.
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Old February 6, 2015, 10:41   #62
Timo Pietilš
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Originally Posted by Bogatyr View Post
OK, back to the no risk claim then. What if there are no horned reapers on the level? What if the vault is full of internal walls?
If TO isn't in arsenal and you want to clear a vault without risk, use destruction. Earthquake. There are other ways to clear vaults than just TO. You don't even have to be in LoS of any of the denizens into that vault.

Note: Can be done doesn't mean should be done. Usually if it looks like it will be too much hassle; just leave.
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Old February 6, 2015, 10:50   #63
Bogatyr
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Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
No it is not. I can win every game I play. The difference between me and you is obviously that you take risks, while I don't. Angband is numbers game, even a slight chance, when repeated often enough, will kill you. If action has even a slight chance of getting you killed, I don't take that.
I like to think I can, too, but yes I do take risks sometimes, and so I die sometimes. But winning the game wasn't the claim, the claim was that you can *clear* *any* *vault* with *0% risk*, with no further disclaimer other than "proper play." And I'm really truly interested if I'm missing some key game mechanic knowledge, or if your "proper play" includes simple, obvious things like "having more hitpoints than any single possible attack", "more speed than any monster," "enough healing to recover from any single attack," and "skipping vaults where these conditions do not hold". You didn't say "clearing any vault that I *choose* to," but "any" vault.

Case in point, in this vault fragment:

###########
#LmQU#@...#
#########.#

where any/all of the monsters behind that wall have insta-death attacks against you. No crushing monsters like Horned Reapers can touch them because they're behind walls. *Destruct* destroys objects and so can't be considered to be "clearing" the vault. Banish doesn't work if they're uniques. You can't open the wall without ending up in LOS of everything behind it because of the permanent wall. It may be in the center of a vault so Earthquake may not be available because you may not be able to reach the right place, and even if so Earthquake can destroy valuable objects so doesn't fall into "clearing" the vault.

Even if there is a way to know if one monster will have a move on you after opening the wall (is there?), there are multiple monsters and so TO will take too long and one of them will get a chance for an insta death attack.
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Old February 6, 2015, 11:38   #64
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re: Bogatyr

If you run today, you can stand and fight another day *lol*.
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Old February 6, 2015, 11:56   #65
Timo Pietilš
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Originally Posted by Bogatyr View Post
Case in point, in this vault fragment:

###########
#LmQU#@...#
#########.#

It may be in the center of a vault so Earthquake may not be available because you may not be able to reach the right place, and even if so Earthquake can destroy valuable objects so doesn't fall into "clearing" the vault.
TO would help there either.

Earthquake outside of the vault so that the edge of the blast touches that wall.

There isn't any vaults like that though. CGV middle section comes close, but that can be dealt with earthquake since that's the only section of that vault that has it and you can clear rest of it without being in LoS of multiple monsters at once.

It's always possible, not always sensible though.
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Old February 6, 2015, 13:35   #66
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Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
TO would help there either.

Earthquake outside of the vault so that the edge of the blast touches that wall.

There isn't any vaults like that though. CGV middle section comes close, but that can be dealt with earthquake since that's the only section of that vault that has it and you can clear rest of it without being in LoS of multiple monsters at once.

It's always possible, not always sensible though.
Correct, TO does not help there. It might for single monsters, but not 100% if the monster is instadeath, if there's no way to judge if the monster gets its move immediately after clearing the wall. There is a very large vault version with long horizontal corridors where both ends may be "plugged" with multiple instadeath monsters. If you could get above it or below it earthquake might help, but earthquake could also destroy items. If we're allowing destruction of items in the definition of "clearing", once could just destruct the entire thing and pick up any remaining artifacts (I've tried this a few times and each time nothing remains, so I guess I was unlucky).

In any case, that is less than "clearing," which for me means getting every single item in the fault. If the goal is reduced from "clearing" to selective "picking", sacrificing some items to make some areas accessible, then I come close to a agreeing that it is always possible with 0% risk given enough time and effort, but that again wasn't the initial claim.

Last edited by Bogatyr; February 6, 2015 at 13:49.
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Old February 6, 2015, 14:23   #67
Timo Pietilš
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If we're allowing destruction of items in the definition of "clearing", once could just destruct the entire thing and pick up any remaining artifacts (I've tried this a few times and each time nothing remains, so I guess I was unlucky).
I think 3.4.1 changed that so that even artifacts get removed by destruction. If you play with preserve off and didn't ID it as artifact then those can be created again like if you just missed them in preserve on. If you ID it as artifact and then destroy the artifact gets lost.

I'm not sure how Earthquake deals with artifacts. It can "delete" uniques without actually killing them, so it is possible that same applies to artifacts just like with destruction.

That change was made for making vault clearing less easy. My vote for vaults is opposite to that: make them invulnerable to destruction and earthquake. A bit like what happens in town if you cast destruction there.
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Old February 6, 2015, 21:25   #68
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Back to the OP's original thought (about giants)... Any thoughts on having Slay Giant not be a racial slay, but slay anything that is very very large. So P, but also D, maybe some Us, big worms, giant rocs...
That'd be pretty easy to playtest. Just open up monster.txt and manually add GIANT to the flags of the monsters you want to turn into giants. There's a little bit of display weirdness in that monster memory will only display one type in the case of monsters that have multiple types but slays still work properly.

You could defensibly add it to all those giant animals and vermin that populate the early dungeon. They are giant after all.
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Old February 6, 2015, 21:35   #69
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There's a little bit of display weirdness in that monster memory will only display one type in the case of monsters that have multiple types but slays still work properly.
Wait, really? I could've sworn monster entries would say things like "this evil undead dragon is worth X experience per kill" for Dracoliches and the like.
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Old February 6, 2015, 23:07   #70
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Wait, really? I could've sworn monster entries would say things like "this evil undead dragon is worth X experience per kill" for Dracoliches and the like.
I just checked the Dracolich entry and it displays properly. I was going off what happens if a monster has both the flags GIANT and DRAGON, which was the only case I tested.
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