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Old May 11, 2009, 21:40   #11
Zikke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atarlost View Post
Actually, I think you can make arrows without heads. They won't do near as much damage, though. Decent quality arrowheads, though, don't break on use. You can collect and reuse them without limit as long as you have the opportunity to pick them up.

I thought arrows without arrowheads are just quarrels, which is just a sharpened stick, essentially.

Would be fine making (+0,+0) arrows, but it would be important to make them worthless to vendors. You could even make them a separate item, like "Crafted Arrows" or "Home-made arrows" or "sharpened sticks" to govern their resale value.

And I believe the "Brand Missiles" spell should make the arrows unsellable. It's way too easy mass-brand arrows and sell them.
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Old May 12, 2009, 01:22   #12
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Originally Posted by PaulBlay View Post
I think it's a little late in the day to start bringing up realism. But if you want to go down that route, then I hope you've made enough arrows yourself to throw around "surely"s like that.
Any 2-bit ranger knows to collect the heads from bent and broken arrows for re-crafting, or to fashion cheap necklaces to sell at the craft fair.
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Old May 14, 2009, 06:45   #13
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Bit more play under my belt as a ranger and I've modified my idea a little.

What about a ranger spell similar to elemental brand, but to add a random slay to a stack of ammunition with the same restrictions as elemental brand has (won't work on stuff already branded, etc.)?

In no case should it add the x5 slay, always just the x3 but there seem to be eight of these:

Code:
#define TR1_SLAY_ANIMAL     0x00010000L /* Weapon slays animals */
#define TR1_SLAY_EVIL       0x00020000L /* Weapon slays evil */
#define TR1_SLAY_UNDEAD     0x00040000L /* Weapon slays undead */
#define TR1_SLAY_DEMON      0x00080000L /* Weapon slays demon */
#define TR1_SLAY_ORC        0x00100000L /* Weapon slays orc */
#define TR1_SLAY_TROLL      0x00200000L /* Weapon slays troll */
#define TR1_SLAY_GIANT      0x00400000L /* Weapon slays giant */
#define TR1_SLAY_DRAGON     0x00800000L /* Weapon slays dragon */
I don't see this as game breaking or overpowered if you can't cast it until the same time as elemental brand - by that time you can just kill stuff. Also, it's not totally game breaking because you're limited in the number of arrows you can actually store and carry with you.

I don't think this would be particularly hard to code but I'm not clear on how to add a spell into spell.txt. The mage spells are numbered through 63, then the preist spells start at 64 - so if I want to add in a spell to play with, how would I go about that? Do I need to renumber all the preist spells to make room for an additional mage spell at the end or can I just make this spell #129 and try and figure out how to get it into the right book?

My other thought was to make elemental brand do a random slay instead of a brand maybe 5% of the time - that'd be very easy to do of course, but I think that'd be next to useless. Random one of 8 slays, 5% of the time?
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Old May 14, 2009, 08:19   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LanceDiamond View Post
I don't see this as game breaking or overpowered if you can't cast it until the same time as elemental brand - by that time you can just kill stuff. Also, it's not totally game breaking because you're limited in the number of arrows you can actually store and carry with you.
It would be game-breaking, because it guarantees infinite Slay Evil ammo, making Morgoth twice as easy to kill. Many ppl consider the existing Brand Ammo spell overpowered as it is (since it guarantees acid brand ammo for Sauron).
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Old May 14, 2009, 09:23   #15
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I knew it wouldn't be too hard to code...

I was poking around spells.txt & x-spell.c and I noticed that mage spell #7 was commented out in x-spell.c and didn't exist in spells.txt so there was a free spell id to play with.

I now have Make Slayer in book #8. Can't figure out how to get mana cost, level learned and failure rate in yet so right now it's 0/0/5% but it works. It was mostly just a cut/paste of brand_ammo into a new function I called slay_ammo. The only changes I made to brand_ammo were thus:

Code:
	r = randint0(80);

	/* Select the brand */
	if (r < 11)
		brand_type = EGO_HURT_ANIMAL;
	else if (r < 21)
		brand_type = EGO_HURT_EVIL;
	else if (r < 31)
		brand_type = EGO_HURT_UNDEAD;
	else if (r < 41)
		brand_type = EGO_HURT_DEMON;
	else if (r < 51)
		brand_type = EGO_HURT_ORC;
	else if (r < 61)
		brand_type = EGO_HURT_TROLL;
	else if (r < 71)
		brand_type = EGO_HURT_GIANT;
	else
		brand_type = EGO_HURT_DRAGON;
I changed the randint(100) to randint(80) since 8 choices divides nicely into 80.

slay_ammo then calls brand_object and that function does have some cases for the type of brand but only inasmuch as the message to be displayed. The default of "magical aura" winds up being used.

One thing I just noticed playing around, it seems that these two:

Code:
#define EGO_HURT_ORC		116
#define EGO_HURT_TROLL		117
Are now acid & lightning arrows respectively, not slay orc & troll as I would have thought. I may back them out, possibly even add them to brand I dunno. Acid/lightning branding shouldn't be happening in a spell called Make Slayer I don't think. And Make Slayer isn't the greatest name while I'm thinking about it either...

I do feel like this would be a decent change to get into the base game - it'd make up for the lack of interesting ammo drops and you're still forced to stand around town making it and decide what to carry.


Edit: Didn't see the above post - I took a while to make my post. In my initial experiment, I got no slay evil ammo - I could make it less probable I guess. Maybe only half the chance of the others or something. Also, the brand ammo doesn't add acid, it only offers Fire/Cold/Poison. This is 3.1.1 I'm working with - does 3.1.0 differ in this regard? I do agree, a ranger with the "right" arrow types is quite deadly (fun since I've not played one before) but OTOH do you think you should have to save ever single slay evil piece of ammo you find the entire game ONLY for Morgoth because otherwise it's so incredibly rare you won't have any when the time comes? I mean I envisage a high level ranger making his arrows for the purpose he needs and this allows that.
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Old May 14, 2009, 18:58   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LanceDiamond View Post
Edit: Didn't see the above post - I took a while to make my post. In my initial experiment, I got no slay evil ammo - I could make it less probable I guess. Maybe only half the chance of the others or something. Also, the brand ammo doesn't add acid, it only offers Fire/Cold/Poison. This is 3.1.1 I'm working with - does 3.1.0 differ in this regard? I do agree, a ranger with the "right" arrow types is quite deadly (fun since I've not played one before) but OTOH do you think you should have to save ever single slay evil piece of ammo you find the entire game ONLY for Morgoth because otherwise it's so incredibly rare you won't have any when the time comes? I mean I envisage a high level ranger making his arrows for the purpose he needs and this allows that.
Well, I think the reason the brand ammo spell doesn't create acid-branded arrows is precisely to stop rangers making them for fighting Sauron. So by the same token, your new spell shouldn't create Slay Evil arrows.

There's nothing wrong with your idea per se, but rangers are currently the class which least needs this kind of boost. Give it to rogues to use on sling ammo - then you'd be talking ...

CC
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Old May 14, 2009, 19:43   #17
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Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
There's nothing wrong with your idea per se, but rangers are currently the class which least needs this kind of boost. Give it to rogues to use on sling ammo - then you'd be talking ...
That would still be game-breaking. There are a few uniques that are not vulnerable to fire/cold/poison. If you allow the player to produce slay demon/undead/dragon as well, those uniques cease to be anywhere near as threatening.

Instead of adding a slay spell, we should be figuring out how to remove the brand spell.
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Old May 15, 2009, 00:15   #18
Nile
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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
Instead of adding a slay spell, we should be figuring out how to remove the brand spell.
I second.
......
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Old May 15, 2009, 19:44   #19
LanceDiamond
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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
That would still be game-breaking. There are a few uniques that are not vulnerable to fire/cold/poison. If you allow the player to produce slay demon/undead/dragon as well, those uniques cease to be anywhere near as threatening.

Instead of adding a slay spell, we should be figuring out how to remove the brand spell.
I don't entirely understand this. Why should rangers be forced to use the wrong type of damage while a melee can happily just switch weapons? I agree, the ranger seems easy but it's been fun for me. In fact, I added the slay spell, figured out how to make it cost the same as the brand, removed the randomness from both and can produce arrows at will. I also added acid and lightning to brand. Been running around with slay evil/dragon and acid brand - seems a nice mix.

Yes, it's easy mode and I wouldn't think all I've done would make it into the base code, but why rangers should be forced to not have the right damage is baffling. How about making arrows never drop at all - because they drop infrequently enough now, it may as well be never.
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Old May 15, 2009, 20:13   #20
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Originally Posted by LanceDiamond View Post
Why should rangers be forced to use the wrong type of damage while a melee can happily just switch weapons?
It's a matter of balancing damage output. Rangers have high damage output even without slays and branded ammunition. With the right modifier on the ammo, they do absurd levels of damage, and all of this is from the (relative) safety of up to 12 tiles away.

The damage formula already favors ranged attacks in a number of ways. Ranged attacks receive two damage bonuses (launcher and the ammo), they get an extra multiplier (from the launcher, x3 for long bows), and the launcher multiplier modifies the damage bonuses (unlike the slay modifier). Consider that rangers can also get slays and multiple attacks with ranged, just like melee weapons get. The only mitigating factors are the inconvenience of carrying ammo, and the inconvenience of acquiring and expending high quality ammo (that with good base damage, high damage bonuses, and slays/brands).

By having easy access to good ammo enchantment (both for damage bonuses and for slays/brands), the ranger need not conserve his resources, and can go full throttle on anything. Two alternatives to having brand spells would be putting slays/brands on the launcher, and/or making powerful ammo easier to find (but not make).

I'm pretty sure a ranger with Bard and the right ammo already has the highest damage output in Vanilla, and at just about any level rangers are competitive if not dominant in terms of damage. Maybe a warrior rocking 6 attacks with one of the heavy-hitting artifact weapons VS an executable target could top a ranger, but I'd have to see the numbers before I believed it.

I agree though, it is hell of fun to tear through things with branded ammo and a good launcher.
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