Naedim, Sil pacifist

Quirk · December 9, 2017, 12:14

I've been playing a lot of Sil pacifists on Angband.live lately. Sil, rather than Sil-Q, because getting the Angband.live purple on my own variant would feel cheeky.

Naedim made it all the way, having learned from the mistakes of pacifists past.

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=21310

From the beginning I was determined not to spend in Melee, Evasion, Archery, Will or Smithing. (I was somewhat open to Will, but I think the only ability plausibly worth the points for a pacifist there is Channeling). There's less XP available as a pacifist and so it has to be carefully used.

I began with 8 Stealth, Disguise, and 3 Perception, Keen Senses. This kept Vanish open from early on in case I needed it. In the event I never did. The goal was to get Listen, then spend almost all the rest of my XP in the song tree.

Pacifists are very fragile starting out and the game can screw you over easily. A recent defeat with another pacifist that particularly rankles came through standing on some stairs about to descend waiting a moment to recover Voice when Othrod and alll his escorts came up, moving me off it and surrounding me. Game over. Getting past the first few levels required some amount of luck.

In general however the particularly bad enemies are birds, wargs and shadows. Birds move fast and are good at spotting you early on, wargs move fast and track you by scent, and shadows are hard to see and cannot be put to sleep. Later on Easterling spies turn up, and their insanely high perception is very hard to evade.

The early game followed the regular pattern of scouting about for the down stairs and bailing back to go up and down if the stairs appeared to be blocked or I was spotted or heard wargs picking up my scent. There was a scare at 500' where I was fleeing Orcobal and friends to the stairs and a bunch of orcs came up, and I was almost completely surrounded. I tried an unidentified staff and it turned out to be Majesty, which put them to flight and let me descend. This was fortunately the narrowest escape of the whole game. At 700' or so I started running into shadows, which got messy on a couple of occasions. Sprinting would potentially have helped but I didn't want to make the XP investment; it would have further delayed having a usable Song of Lorien. I took some grace draining from a bunch of wights I was forced to run through, but luckily had enough lembas to regain it; later running from another shadow I had to go through a group of cats and relied on the staff of Majesty again.

Picked up the Leather Armour of Gorlim at 800', which has terror (afraid/fast when you take more than 10 damage - perfect for a pacifist!) and Exchange Places. Exchange Places didn't come into its own until the escape, but it did a lot of work then. Terror never triggered - I was seldom hit after that.

950' with Song of about 20 and Lorien is much more comfortable than the levels above as oathwraiths are much easier to avoid than shadows. I scoured 900' and 950' for a long time looking for a sharp weapon to cut Sils with but came up blank - it looks from the dump as though I missed the dagger Nargil, but if it was in Gothmog's hall there was small chance of getting it.

I hung round upgrading my gear and getting my Song to the low 30s before tackling the throne room. This was my third attempt with a pacifist and I had a calculated plan: I put everything to sleep with Lorien right away, then stood near the doors and sounded a horn towards Morgoth. On this occasion it was not immediately successful and it took a few tries to both wake and alert him. He then headed toward me purposefully leaving the crown where it had fallen from his head and I sent him back to sleep.

I had retained a lot of XP for purchasing Woven Themes, Song of Aule, Song of Sharpness and Song of Mastery. Sharpness with Silence was essential for Sil-cutting without having sharp weapons (I tried briefly to free one without it but this was ineffective). On cutting the third the whole place woke up, and Mastery gave me space to vacate out of line of sight and restart Lorien and Silence, shutting down Morgoth's songs. It's possible Lorien and Silence would have done the job without Mastery, but I didn't want to get too cute, and Mastery at 37+ Song works very well to freeze the room. In any case this took and soon even Morgoth was asleep again.

I had accumulated over 20 charges of Revelations to make my escape, and had plenty of potions of Voice, not having used any on the throne room itself, so I was able to sing more or less continuously all the way up. Exchange Places with a potent Lorien woke enemies up just to put them back to sleep immediately with no attacking. At the entrance there were many traps, not all of which could be disarmed; I drank a Constitution potion and equipped an appropriate amulet so I could bulldoze through the spiked pits. Carcharoth slept as I whispered past, and I was out.

Nivim · December 10, 2017, 03:17

Since this was done on Angband.live, there was chat, and since I was present, I saved the chat. Here is the section from entering the throneroom to victory in an organizational spoiler;

taptap · December 13, 2017, 16:09

What is your opinion on lore master for singers? Does it overall gain xp? 60k is pretty high for a pacifist.

If you are not taking lore master, I would prefer Doriath for singers. You start just a few hundred xp shy of Song of Lorien.

Nivim · December 14, 2017, 05:22

I watched him gain 200xp on a quarter of a floor from Loremaster, so even though getting it is 2500-3500xp on a Finarfin, I'd expect it to pay for itself over the course of 800ft to 950ft-scumming.

I'm not very experienced with pacifists, but Stealth seems more reliable than Song at the beginning.

wobbly · December 14, 2017, 06:40

I think loremaster falls a bit short longterm on xp (you'll get most of that xp anyway without), but it does make for a lot less headaches & a finarfin can certainly afford it. Even stuff like knowing whether a dagger sitting under a big drake is Angrist or not makes a huge difference.

I've tried perception/listen, stealth, evasion/sprinting & song starts. Personal opinion is listen is easiest followed by sprinters. Pure stealth seems hardiest to me. There just isn't a huge range of options against Wargs in a blind corridor. Traps can randomly screw you & something like -1 str & a locked door, web or pit is not fun. You also want some way to deal with shadows & it's preferable to be able to see them in the 1st place.

Quirk · December 16, 2017, 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by taptap

What is your opinion on lore master for singers? Does it overall gain xp? 60k is pretty high for a pacifist.

If you are not taking lore master, I would prefer Doriath for singers. You start just a few hundred xp shy of Song of Lorien.

I don't think Lore Master necessarily gains XP overall, unless you count not having to invest in Will to use-id potions and herbs, but it's probably pretty close to break-even in the long run. It does enhance survivability a lot; anything that use-ids based on combat is hard to identify otherwise (or if it has wrath or attracts shadows finding out can be very bad), you get more of the useful potions and herbs, you don't accidentally test an earthquake staff... it gives you a lot that's useful.

At the point I generally get Lorien (about 550' this run) it's not quite good enough initially to be able to reliably sleep Sulrauko and werewolves before they spot me, even with the advance warning of Listen. It would presumably be stronger to have it earlier, and Doriath can in fact start with Lorien if they sink everything into Song, but with such low stealth you're likely to wake stuff up again very easily as you pass unless you're singing Silence (which also drains your Voice). Without Keen Senses/Listen also you are more likely to run into enemies at a distance you can't easily escape. I think you probably die to different things: you're probably better against things moving around rapidly and randomly, but if you're facing sustained pressure and you run out of Voice you won't have many tools left.

I found starting with Listen/low stealth harder than high stealth/Keen Senses and build to Listen. I kept finding that I'd descend with Listen and find too many enemies around me to evade with my current stealth - which would put me into escape mode right away, and once away from the stairs, if enemies did enter a corridor behind me and the route out of the room ahead was blocked, things were liable to get messy very fast if they spotted me. I don't think the amount I put in stealth early is necessarily optimal, it's probably better to balance investment in Song of Silence with Stealth, but I found it made the tricky early levels very much easier once I learned to avoid wolves and birds and shut doors (less for noise purposes, more for blocking the early wolves).

I generally had Listen by the time I entered warg and shadow depth, but I didn't see shadows before they crept up on me. This is largely because when they're "visible" with Listen or Keen Senses, they're invisible. Sprinting might help. Wargs I kept a very close eye on, but there is an element of luck; if they get your scent while you're distant from the stair, or while they're between you and the only known stair, survival is hard. Again I can believe Sprinting could help. There are many places where being discovered with or without Sprinting makes little difference though, and Sprinting costs 4300 XP, which feels hard to swing in the early game. I haven't given Sprinting a fair try though since my goal was to do without Evasion or Melee.

An option I tried a few times when desperate was Song of Elbereth, but as I found Song of Sharpness was always necessary, the cost of that extra addition in the Song tree was too much for me to ever be happy taking it, and when things didn't flee the situation usually turned fatal.

Quirk · December 18, 2017, 02:02

Having played around a bit with Sindar Doriath now I'm not sold on a Song of Lorien start. It feels stronger on the first few levels, but as you get into Warg and Easterling depth, enemy perception and will increase steeply from 1s and 2s into 6s and 7s, and it's no longer so easy to soothe aroused enemies back to sleep - they see you sooner and are slower to put to sleep. More stealth is needed not to be spotted, but without investing in perception you end up at Warg depth without Listen and that feels very fragile.

Making a comparison run with my usual style again it occurs to me how much time is spent in corners of crowded areas waiting for enemies to file past. This requires quite a bit of stealth to be safe, preferably not completely tied to Song of Silence.

That doesn't mean that Sindar Doriath might not be the better choice in the long run - pacifist means a heavy investment in the Song tree - but I think the difference between -1 and 0 Str becomes relevant once you're boosting it to tunnel later, and the extra Grace point also makes a difference in terms of Voice; this possibly outweighs the experience boost for me.

December 9, 2017, 12:14	#1
Quirk Swordsman Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 254	Naedim, Sil pacifist I've been playing a lot of Sil pacifists on Angband.live lately. Sil, rather than Sil-Q, because getting the Angband.live purple on my own variant would feel cheeky. Naedim made it all the way, having learned from the mistakes of pacifists past. http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=21310 From the beginning I was determined not to spend in Melee, Evasion, Archery, Will or Smithing. (I was somewhat open to Will, but I think the only ability plausibly worth the points for a pacifist there is Channeling). There's less XP available as a pacifist and so it has to be carefully used. I began with 8 Stealth, Disguise, and 3 Perception, Keen Senses. This kept Vanish open from early on in case I needed it. In the event I never did. The goal was to get Listen, then spend almost all the rest of my XP in the song tree. Pacifists are very fragile starting out and the game can screw you over easily. A recent defeat with another pacifist that particularly rankles came through standing on some stairs about to descend waiting a moment to recover Voice when Othrod and alll his escorts came up, moving me off it and surrounding me. Game over. Getting past the first few levels required some amount of luck. In general however the particularly bad enemies are birds, wargs and shadows. Birds move fast and are good at spotting you early on, wargs move fast and track you by scent, and shadows are hard to see and cannot be put to sleep. Later on Easterling spies turn up, and their insanely high perception is very hard to evade. The early game followed the regular pattern of scouting about for the down stairs and bailing back to go up and down if the stairs appeared to be blocked or I was spotted or heard wargs picking up my scent. There was a scare at 500' where I was fleeing Orcobal and friends to the stairs and a bunch of orcs came up, and I was almost completely surrounded. I tried an unidentified staff and it turned out to be Majesty, which put them to flight and let me descend. This was fortunately the narrowest escape of the whole game. At 700' or so I started running into shadows, which got messy on a couple of occasions. Sprinting would potentially have helped but I didn't want to make the XP investment; it would have further delayed having a usable Song of Lorien. I took some grace draining from a bunch of wights I was forced to run through, but luckily had enough lembas to regain it; later running from another shadow I had to go through a group of cats and relied on the staff of Majesty again. Picked up the Leather Armour of Gorlim at 800', which has terror (afraid/fast when you take more than 10 damage - perfect for a pacifist!) and Exchange Places. Exchange Places didn't come into its own until the escape, but it did a lot of work then. Terror never triggered - I was seldom hit after that. 950' with Song of about 20 and Lorien is much more comfortable than the levels above as oathwraiths are much easier to avoid than shadows. I scoured 900' and 950' for a long time looking for a sharp weapon to cut Sils with but came up blank - it looks from the dump as though I missed the dagger Nargil, but if it was in Gothmog's hall there was small chance of getting it. I hung round upgrading my gear and getting my Song to the low 30s before tackling the throne room. This was my third attempt with a pacifist and I had a calculated plan: I put everything to sleep with Lorien right away, then stood near the doors and sounded a horn towards Morgoth. On this occasion it was not immediately successful and it took a few tries to both wake and alert him. He then headed toward me purposefully leaving the crown where it had fallen from his head and I sent him back to sleep. I had retained a lot of XP for purchasing Woven Themes, Song of Aule, Song of Sharpness and Song of Mastery. Sharpness with Silence was essential for Sil-cutting without having sharp weapons (I tried briefly to free one without it but this was ineffective). On cutting the third the whole place woke up, and Mastery gave me space to vacate out of line of sight and restart Lorien and Silence, shutting down Morgoth's songs. It's possible Lorien and Silence would have done the job without Mastery, but I didn't want to get too cute, and Mastery at 37+ Song works very well to freeze the room. In any case this took and soon even Morgoth was asleep again. I had accumulated over 20 charges of Revelations to make my escape, and had plenty of potions of Voice, not having used any on the throne room itself, so I was able to sing more or less continuously all the way up. Exchange Places with a potent Lorien woke enemies up just to put them back to sleep immediately with no attacking. At the entrance there were many traps, not all of which could be disarmed; I drank a Constitution potion and equipped an appropriate amulet so I could bulldoze through the spiked pits. Carcharoth slept as I whispered past, and I was out.

December 10, 2017, 03:17	#2
Nivim Apprentice Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Sufficient for living and internet. Posts: 61	Since this was done on Angband.live, there was chat, and since I was present, I saved the chat. Here is the section from entering the throneroom to victory in an organizational spoiler; [12:51] Quirk: might have enough XP to just buy another Song point [12:52] Nivim: Already have Exchange? [12:52] Quirk: well, they won't attack just yet anyway [12:52] Quirk: yeah [12:52] Quirk: I do [12:52] Quirk: on my armour [12:52] Nivim: While they're not attacking you want to put them asleep so they don't get in your way as easily. [12:52] Quirk: Okay. I think I want to quaff some potions now, nose a little closer to get Morgoth asleep [12:53] Quirk: then retreat here and sound the horn [12:53] Nivim: Not at an angle like last time? [12:53] Quirk: I considered the angle last time but ended up doing it from here [12:53] Quirk: and it was fine, Lorien shut things down fairly well [12:54] Nivim: You have as much Song as you did then? [12:54] Quirk: If I buy another point and drink my potions, yes [12:54] Nivim: I would explore the room a bit first; check for gorthaur or the like. [12:55] Quirk: would be good to know if he's here, for sure [12:55] Nivim: Not all the *s have shown up. [12:55] Quirk: Ungoliant this time. [12:55] Nivim: Not Fast? [12:55] Quirk: Doesn't look like it. [12:56] Nivim: I guess I'm remember another spider. [12:56] Nivim: s/ber/bering/ [12:56] Nivim: Will the side hallways and rooms matter? [12:56] Quirk: I'll try to avoid them because they're too easily blocked. [12:57] Nivim: And if you're unlucky and the main path gets blocked when you cut a Sil? [12:57] Quirk: I'll do some scouting now I think [12:57] Nivim: Horay. [12:57] Quirk: since everything looks properly asleep [12:58] Quirk: well shit [12:58] Quirk: Need woven themes at least [12:58] Nivim: What was that Morgoth's Will thing? [12:58] Quirk: yeah [12:58] Nivim: I didn't catch the line; did he wake up? [12:58] Quirk: he woke up and began a song of piercing [12:58] Nivim: Ouch. [12:58] Quirk: that catches me I'm in trouble [12:59] Nivim: Time to buy stuff and fix that. [12:59] Quirk: and the Grace potion puts me over the edge [13:00] Quirk: hmm, question is whether to run round the right as well [13:01] Quirk: now I'm using my potions [13:01] Quirk: I'm recollecting last time they ran out just as I exited [13:01] Nivim: You only need potion once you got too close to Morgoth. [13:01] Quirk: and a few turns extra would have been a big difference [13:01] Quirk: but I can probably afford to lose this one [13:01] Nivim: I'm wondering why you didn't even finish the left. [13:02] Quirk: the top left will have a bunch of guys in it [13:02] Nivim: And is Gorthaur one of them? [13:02] Quirk: if he is he's out of line of sight so likely not an issue [13:02] Nivim: There are a couple places you can recover Voice in peace, right? [13:03] Nivim: So you can Lorien/Silence for immense saftey. [13:03] Quirk: yeah, I can do it in here I think [13:03] Quirk: Easterling spies I don't love poking round [13:03] Quirk: they have huge perception [13:03] Nivim: Can't you overcome them back when you had 13 stealth and 20 Song? My assassin could avoid them that way. [13:04] Nivim: Hi Gamil Zirak; we have no forges for you. [13:04] Quirk: hmm, secret door must be at the back of the chest? [13:04] Nivim: Secret door? [13:04] Quirk: nope [13:04] Quirk: there's a secret passage behind Morgoth [13:04] Quirk: should come out somewhere round here [13:04] Nivim: There isn't an entrance there I've ever seen. [13:05] Nivim: Only Morgoth digging makes a path. [13:05] Quirk: ah, does it go round the back? [13:05] Nivim: Yeah. [13:05] Quirk: makes sense [13:05] Quirk: okay [13:05] Nivim: Also, why are you not singing so close to Morgoth? [13:05] Quirk: going to go up to the top to explore the right [13:05] Nivim: K. [13:06] Nivim: What's your current stat-stick? [13:06] Nivim: Yeah that's better. [13:06] Quirk: Dagmor. +Grace. [13:06] Quirk: and light [13:07] Nivim: Which Balrog? [13:07] Quirk: lucky that wasn't an alarm trap [13:07] Nivim: Yeah, you're being quite cavalier with the open spaces. [13:07] Nivim: Normally I'd wait a turn every three or four steps. [13:07] Quirk: yeah, this is reasonable [13:08] Quirk: I've not triggered a trap in ages [13:08] Quirk: so am getting a bit cavalier now [13:08] rodent: I'm not sure what the fearless personality does, but it certainly seems fitting [13:08] Nivim: rodent: Gives you a pip of rFear, and a couple other things? [13:09] Gwarl: I have even better stealth and resists now [13:09] Quirk: hmm recharging [13:09] Quirk: but what to recharge [13:09] rodent: not to mention 500+ HP at clvl 28 [13:09] Quirk: I have a lot of Revelations [13:09] Gwarl: time for icky cave or lonely mountain or giant's hall [13:09] Quirk: Freedom maybe? Warding? [13:10] Gwarl: yes the HP is nice too [13:10] Nivim: Quirk: A slumbing and even more Rev? In case you need to go back down? [13:10] rodent: icky cave is the dullest but also the least deathy [13:10] Quirk: yeah, more Rev never hurts [13:10] Nivim: I guess Warding is ok, but I never remember to use it. [13:10] Quirk: I feel like I should be able to safeguard an escape route with it [13:10] Gwarl: I have things that can be acidated by formless spawns [13:10] Nivim: Gwarl: I'd do Lonely mountain; you at least have the resists. [13:10] Gwarl: yeah [13:10] Gwarl: okay [13:10] Nivim: Quirk: Oh! That is a decen idea, just hard. [13:11] Gwarl: we'll resume this broadcast after a short intermission [13:11] Nivim: Need at least six charges and carefully moving some creatures? [13:11] Quirk: at the very least I could make some spaces by the stairs [13:11] Nivim: Um, spaces by the stairs is really bad. [13:11] Nivim: You can kill yourself that way. [13:11] Quirk: ah yes, they'll sit on the stairs instead [13:12] Nivim: Yeah, that'll ruin your pacifist run unless you drag Morgoth over to break the runes. [13:12] Nivim: The Warding is to keep things from entering doorways, or to keep them from closing ranks in the main room. [13:12] Nivim: But you need to completely surround a doorway for it really help. [13:13] Quirk: yeah [13:13] Quirk: okay, I think I'll spread things out [13:13] Nivim: Unless you have a particular Warding plan. [13:13] Nivim: Otherwise Slumber + Rev. [13:13] Quirk: or I could drop warding [13:13] Quirk: and take the recharge [13:13] Nivim: I wouldn't. [13:13] Quirk: yeah, it's more options [13:14] Quirk: I feel like Freedom may be relevant on the ascent [13:14] Nivim: A bit, but you don't have enough Will to close chasms with it, so not very often. [13:15] Quirk: could buy Channeling [13:15] Quirk: it's about 800 XP [13:15] Nivim: Wait, what are you other Will abilities? [13:15] Nivim: Oh, you got away without will. [13:15] Nivim: Neat. [13:15] Quirk: nothing in Will so far [13:15] Nivim: Normally I get Will earlier so I can safely use-ID potions, but you have Loremaster, so that's fine. [13:15] Quirk: yeah, it's probably not a reliable chasm closer [13:16] Quirk: okay, going to head back and use the horn [13:16] Nivim: For reliable chasm closing you'd need something like 8 points in Will plus Channeling? [13:16] Nivim: Oh, not going to check the room SE of Morgoth? [13:17] Quirk: yeah, which I could maybe afford [13:17] Nivim: Can't spend that XP yet; you might still need it for something else. [13:17] Quirk: I don't think I'll be escaping that way [13:17] Nivim: It's an option ,though. [13:17] Quirk: but sure, for completeness, if you like [13:17] Nivim: Quirk: Not escaping; seeing if there's something that'll pop out. [13:17] Nivim: Also yes I do care about completeness. [13:18] Nivim: Remember to close doors when you're done. [13:18] Quirk: yeah [13:18] Quirk: on the way back [13:18] Quirk: Armour is nice-ish [13:18] Nivim: K. [13:18] Quirk: but I think I like Terror/Exchange Places more [13:19] Nivim: Yeah, you'd need to buy exchange places if you switched armour. [13:19] Quirk: hmm, something dark in there [13:19] Nivim: A dark creature. [13:19] Quirk: or maybe a dark artifact [13:19] Quirk: in any case I doubt I care [13:20] Nivim: Almost a cloak of Jack of Shadows. [13:20] Quirk: Stealth is nice. But it means giving up Warmth. [13:20] Quirk: didn't see much that requires Warmth though. [13:21] Nivim: I don't have a good enough judge on how much those extra stealth points will help you to advise. [13:21] Nivim: I know it'll be hard for anything frosty to be awake enough for you, though. [13:21] Quirk: Okay, going to swap out, Stealth probably more generally relevant. My Stealth is bad enough to wake Morgoth. That didn't happen on my previous runs. [13:21] Nivim: Ow, Slow. [13:21] Quirk: it's heavier :P [13:22] Quirk: however I'll be lighter by some potions shortly [13:22] Quirk: ah wait, I still had the cloak in my inventory, all is well [13:23] Quirk: Okay. [13:23] Gwarl: back [13:23] Quirk: time to drink a bunch of potions [13:23] Quirk: and blow the horn [13:24] Quirk: Strength can wait until I'm at the crown [13:24] Quirk: ditto dex since I have just one [13:25] Nivim: Did Morgoth not wake? Or did he on the shout? [13:25] Quirk: He's back asleep again whether he woke or not. [13:25] Quirk: So I guess I need another blast. [13:26] Quirk: he's unwary [13:26] Nivim: He is rolling poorly when you want him not to be. [13:26] Quirk: I feel like I would like to have Mastery [13:26] Quirk: however, I think I have to hit him with the horn again [13:26] Nivim: He should go to sleep with a shot of Lorien? [13:26] Nivim: s/should/shouldn't/ [13:27] Quirk: maybe I sleep the guys next to me again before I blow it [13:27] Quirk: oh, now he's singing [13:27] Nivim: Yeah, you don't want him actively working on it, just passively. [13:27] Nivim: I think it's a penalty of him going to Unwary instead of Confident. [13:27] Quirk: hrm, another blast? this is getting tricky [13:28] Nivim: I'm not sure if he'll stop singing with anther blast. [13:28] Quirk: he has noticed me at least [13:28] Quirk: let's try Lorien [13:29] Nivim: Well, he knows. [13:29] Quirk: let's hope he comes to get me [13:29] Nivim: Instead of just standing there and singing about You Lose? [13:29] Quirk: good stuff Morgoth [13:29] Nivim: He's getting ready for the Song you're immune to. [13:29] Nivim: Very Confident of him. [13:30] Nivim: Not far enough? [13:30] Quirk: He's asleep and I think that's far enough. [13:31] Quirk: Going to nip round the side passage. [13:31] Quirk: or not [13:31] Nivim: The other way? [13:31] Nivim: There sometimes isn't a band up there. [13:31] Nivim: I would have taken the direct route while buffed, though. [13:31] Quirk: yeah, I can try to Silence right past him [13:31] Quirk: still pretty buff [13:32] Quirk: okay, sharpness I think [13:33] Quirk: I can maybe get one without Sharpness. [13:33] Nivim: (Not having free action when stuff wakes up would be kinda bad, though.) [13:33] Nivim: Oh, try it. [13:33] Quirk: ugh, let's get the rolls window active [13:33] Nivim: May or may not want to open the rolls window. [13:33] Nivim: Yeah. [13:34] Quirk: ooh, close [13:34] Quirk: but that was a high roll from me [13:34] Quirk: I can maybe do it with the other axe [13:36] Quirk: I think Sharpness is needed [13:36] Nivim: If you don't want your buffs to expire, yeah. [13:36] Quirk: either that or I could spend it on Melee [13:36] Quirk: but that won't get me three, just one [13:37] Nivim: It's amazing how you keep getting rolls where dam is the same as protetion. [13:37] Nivim: That worked. [13:37] Nivim: Next one? [13:37] Quirk: need a place to put them [13:37] Nivim: You will when you switch rings? [13:38] Nivim: Yeah, that works. [13:38] Nivim: Destroying Dramborleg first? [13:38] Quirk: yeah, I need to crit with it for it to be as good as the other axe [13:38] Quirk: and my melee is terrible [13:39] Quirk: Okay. Number three. [13:39] Nivim: So, time to consider a moment for when everything goes to hell? [13:39] Quirk: let's think for a second [13:39] Nivim: Yay. [13:39] Quirk: I'll want Mastery. [13:39] Nivim: Morgoth can slow you on the turn you pry it, right? [13:40] Quirk: plausibly yes [13:40] Nivim: Another speed potion, then? You've faffed a bit. [13:40] Quirk: I'm contemplating drinking more Grace and Con because those running out would be potentially very bad [13:40] Quirk: yeah [13:40] Quirk: okay, so rebuff to be sure [13:41] Nivim: Just a bit; maybe even use the Dex. [13:41] Quirk: then Mastery, hide, Lorien/Silence [13:41] Nivim: Sounds good. [13:41] Quirk: Okay. Let's do it. [13:41] Nivim: I wonder about what might step in bad places when you mastery though; I think the things near the doorway can still move? [13:41] Quirk: yeah, warding might have been a bright idea there [13:42] Nivim: Sorta; it's difficult with the door itself, since you don't want things moving on it, but a rune might prevent them from moving off just as well. [13:42] Nivim: Ah, no singing yet. [13:42] Nivim: I guess he probably wont start next turn either, if you Mastery. [13:43] Quirk: I still have Silence in operation [13:43] Quirk: it'll shut his singing down well [13:43] Quirk: I could even try Lorien here [13:43] Quirk: no, let's not [13:43] Nivim: How do you finagle the interface? [13:44] Nivim: Should we turn off the rolls window again? [13:44] Quirk: Had to shut the song down then start again with a new major theme [13:44] Quirk: yeah [13:44] Quirk: contemplating Lorien here [13:45] Nivim: This does look bad, although I can't see it all. [13:45] Quirk: Morgoth is still moving a little with Mastery [13:45] Quirk: I think it's okay [13:45] Nivim: Is there a big darkness right beside you? [13:45] Nivim: (Does ctrl-R work in Sil like it does in other angbands?) [13:45] Quirk: No, I think it's the edge of Ungoliant's darkness [13:46] Quirk: ctrl-R [13:46] Nivim: Ah, much better than what I first saw. [13:46] Nivim: I thought Ungoliant was right beside you. [13:46] Nivim: Ouch, finally hit with the slow. [13:47] Nivim: You lasted a long time without Free Action. [13:47] Quirk: ah yes [13:47] Nivim: Oh, wait; that was really the potion running out? [13:47] Nivim: That seems so lucky. [13:47] Nivim: Now, how careful can you be here? [13:48] Nivim: Assume Morgoth will Crit his next perception roll. [13:48] Quirk: okay, I can Silence my way past here I think, maybe up the far right side [13:49] Nivim: Drat. [13:49] Quirk: ah [13:49] Nivim: Wrong critter. [13:49] Quirk: those could be bad [13:49] Nivim: Exchange anyway? [13:49] Nivim: They don't do damage, just lots of hunger? [13:49] Quirk: their perception is pretty bad luckily [13:49] Nivim: Or do you have food? [13:49] Quirk: I don't have food sadly [13:50] Nivim: Oh, then they could kill you; it lands a hit, then you fail to find food. [13:50] Nivim: Oh, nice! [13:50] Nivim: They don't get a free attack while unwary! [13:50] Nivim: (You presumeably knew this, but I did not.) [13:50] Nivim: You can't see upshafts in normal Sil, can you? [13:50] Quirk: hmm, I can see Exchange Places doing a lot of work here [13:51] Quirk: nope sadly [13:51] Nivim: Going to [l]ook everywhere for them, or just use stairs? [13:51] Quirk: was going to use stairs but it turns out Morgoth is on these ones [13:51] Nivim: You can sleep him, right? [13:51] Quirk: not exchanging places with him [13:51] Quirk: yeah, but if he's in the corridor could be bad [13:52] Nivim: There's more corridors. [13:52] Nivim: You just want him not bothering you. [13:52] Nivim: Hah. [13:52] Quirk: lucky [13:52] Nivim: TY Morgy. [13:52] Gwarl: yess found a worthy mount I can actually ride [13:52] Gwarl: skeletal tyrannosaurus [13:53] Nivim: Quirk: You want (a)uto, right? [13:53] Nivim: If you're looking for shafts? [13:54] Nivim: You basically just making sure to point it through each room. [13:54] Nivim: s/ing/e/ [13:54] Quirk: yeah, auto is sometimes a wee bit easy to miss with I think [13:54] Quirk: but no nearby shafts anyway [13:54] Nivim: Depends on how used to it you are. [13:55] Nivim: (Gah, bio-break; don't die without me.) [13:58] Nivim: The all-upshaft change is really amazing, isn't it? [13:59] Nivim: More clear how much so when you once again experience without. [13:59] Quirk: yeah, I haven't had any complaints about that change at all [14:00] Nivim: Did you already [l]ook at least for the nearby rooms? [14:00] Nivim: Mind your Voice. [14:00] Quirk: yeah, I need to drop a potion now I think [14:00] Quirk: I have enough I think it makes sense to spend them [14:01] Nivim: I think it would be worth it to check the rooms in room-radius 2. [14:01] Quirk: yeah, maybe [14:02] Nivim: Wait, you see your cursor, right? [14:02] Quirk: yeah [14:02] Nivim: Ok. Was worried an option was off, but it's just spectators that can't see it. [14:02] Fnord: I see it fine [14:03] Quirk: ah, it's a shadow [14:03] Quirk: great [14:03] Nivim: Does it do less damage with all your light radius? [14:03] Nivim: Or just not extra damage like fire brand and such? [14:04] Quirk: not sure [14:04] Quirk: not going to check right now [14:04] Nivim: Wonderous Exchange Places. [14:05] Quirk: with this much Lorien [14:05] Quirk: it's very nice [14:05] Quirk: 3K XP [14:05] Quirk: could get Sprinting [14:05] Nivim: Not sure it will matter, but you can if you like. [14:05] Nivim: Also, I'd leave off silence more often than you, just because it reduces your Listen radius. [14:06] Quirk: I'll keep the XP in case I need it [14:06] Quirk: this is true, but Silence keeps me free of shadows and other uglies [14:06] Nivim: Like for Freedom Channeling? [14:06] Nivim: Ah, that makes sense. [14:07] Quirk: Lorien, so good [14:07] Nivim: Also 33 Song. [14:07] Nivim: Shaft check, I think. [14:07] Quirk: that helps [14:08] Gwarl: http://angband.live/Gwarl/composband/bling.html [14:08] Gwarl: hopefully one of those is an upgrade [14:08] Nivim: Gwarl: Is this Jewellery Vault a new one? [14:09] Gwarl: none of the vaults are my work [14:10] Nivim: Quirk: Lucky with a shaft at the start then not after. [14:11] Quirk: yeahh [14:11] Quirk: stair is some way away [14:11] Nivim: Is it? [14:11] Nivim: I thought it was left? [14:11] Nivim: Bah, my mistake. [14:11] Quirk: nope, far right [14:11] Quirk: could scum with another Revelations charge [14:12] Nivim: You could. [14:12] Nivim: You have enough still, right? [14:12] Quirk: 13 charges [14:12] Quirk: at 450 [14:12] Quirk: I think safeish? [14:12] Nivim: Yeah. [14:12] Quirk: better [14:12] Nivim: I wonder what gave you that extra 100 XP; perhaps the crown was good? [14:13] Quirk: Staff of entrapment [14:13] Nivim: Oh, unseen? [14:13] Quirk: yeah [14:13] Nivim: Levels getting small. [14:13] Nivim: Also a terrible place for morgoth and friends. [14:14] Nivim: I thought Morgoth would have to come from the stair? Does he just generate on level? [14:14] Nivim: Also, watch the Voice. [14:14] Nivim: Oh, you did. [14:13] Quirk: I guess he must just generate somewhere [14:13] Quirk: he isn't coming down from above anyway [14:13] Nivim: Exchange doesn't work with immobiles? [14:13] Quirk: oh hey can I exchange places with a Nightthorn? [14:13] Quirk: just assumed no, I will take scratches though [14:16] Nivim: Ah, oh well. [14:17] Nivim: Another shaft check, just in case? [14:17] Nivim: This is chasmy. [14:18] Quirk: think the route is safe [14:18] Quirk: nope [14:18] Nivim: You didn't spot it? [14:18] Quirk: boots of leaping? :) [14:18] Quirk: no, I missed it [14:19] Nivim: You don't need !Voice every single time, you know. [14:19] Quirk: Miruvor will restore also [14:19] Quirk: I could be a little slower and more careful, but I think there's more chance of me slipping up that way [14:20] Quirk: hmmm [14:20] Nivim: Yeah, annoying. [14:20] Nivim: Presumeably you'll go around. [14:21] Quirk: Close now [14:21] Nivim: Sorta. [14:23] Quirk: hmm [14:23] Nivim: Not a good stair brigade, but you could just walk in. [14:23] Nivim: With songs, that is. [14:24] Quirk: Exchange Places is pretty good [14:24] Nivim: Yes, there are reasons people regularily take it for the ascent. [14:24] Nivim: (Possibly also reasons why it has its own key.) [14:26] Nivim: Morgoth was apparently conviced you were hiding in that one room. [14:27] Nivim: Reached surface with one potion of Voice, followed by a bunch of Rauko. [14:27] Quirk: right :) [14:27] Quirk: and a lot of unused Miruvor [14:27] Quirk: guess I suck up the spiked pit, or leap it [14:27] Quirk: I don't want to sully my record with evasion [14:28] Nivim: Your character is surprisingly bad at traps despite that Perception score. [14:28] Quirk: yeah [14:28] Quirk: roost [14:28] Nivim: I guess it's because you never wait. [14:28] Quirk: hrm [14:28] Nivim: Which only produces things you can put to sleep. [14:29] Nivim: You could put them to sleep back when you might them, right? [14:29] Nivim: s/ight/et/ [14:29] Quirk: yeah, exchange places will work [14:29] Quirk: Gwarl? [14:29] Quirk: About to win Sil. [14:29] Quirk: With a pacifist. [14:29] Gwarl: cool [14:30] rodent: congratulations Quirk! [14:30] Nivim: Now save that character sheet. [14:30] Gwarl: ah! [14:30] Gwarl: I get it [14:30] Gwarl: just a sec [14:30] Fnord: Grats Quirk! [14:30] Quirk: http://angband.live/Quirk/sil/Naedim.txt [14:31] Nivim: And not a single hit was given. [14:31] Quirk: Not a single hit. [14:31] Quirk: No evasion, no melee, no will, no smithing. [14:32] Quirk: oh, no archery either [14:32] Quirk: just a lot of sneaky singing

December 18, 2017, 02:02	#7
Quirk Swordsman Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 254	Having played around a bit with Sindar Doriath now I'm not sold on a Song of Lorien start. It feels stronger on the first few levels, but as you get into Warg and Easterling depth, enemy perception and will increase steeply from 1s and 2s into 6s and 7s, and it's no longer so easy to soothe aroused enemies back to sleep - they see you sooner and are slower to put to sleep. More stealth is needed not to be spotted, but without investing in perception you end up at Warg depth without Listen and that feels very fragile. Making a comparison run with my usual style again it occurs to me how much time is spent in corners of crowded areas waiting for enemies to file past. This requires quite a bit of stealth to be safe, preferably not completely tied to Song of Silence. That doesn't mean that Sindar Doriath might not be the better choice in the long run - pacifist means a heavy investment in the Song tree - but I think the difference between -1 and 0 Str becomes relevant once you're boosting it to tunnel later, and the extra Grace point also makes a difference in terms of Voice; this possibly outweighs the experience boost for me. Last edited by Quirk; December 18, 2017 at 02:16.

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December 13, 2017, 16:09	#3
taptap Knight Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 710	What is your opinion on lore master for singers? Does it overall gain xp? 60k is pretty high for a pacifist. If you are not taking lore master, I would prefer Doriath for singers. You start just a few hundred xp shy of Song of Lorien.

December 14, 2017, 05:22	#4
Nivim Apprentice Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Sufficient for living and internet. Posts: 61	I watched him gain 200xp on a quarter of a floor from Loremaster, so even though getting it is 2500-3500xp on a Finarfin, I'd expect it to pay for itself over the course of 800ft to 950ft-scumming. I'm not very experienced with pacifists, but Stealth seems more reliable than Song at the beginning.

December 14, 2017, 06:40	#5
wobbly Veteran Join Date: May 2012 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 1,736	I think loremaster falls a bit short longterm on xp (you'll get most of that xp anyway without), but it does make for a lot less headaches & a finarfin can certainly afford it. Even stuff like knowing whether a dagger sitting under a big drake is Angrist or not makes a huge difference. I've tried perception/listen, stealth, evasion/sprinting & song starts. Personal opinion is listen is easiest followed by sprinters. Pure stealth seems hardiest to me. There just isn't a huge range of options against Wargs in a blind corridor. Traps can randomly screw you & something like -1 str & a locked door, web or pit is not fun. You also want some way to deal with shadows & it's preferable to be able to see them in the 1st place.

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