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Old March 30, 2010, 17:14   #1
Nate
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Missing mushroom and object generation question

This is for version 3.1.2 I've got one unidentified mushroom on my object info list. I'm guessing this is the mushroom of turbulence and that it can never be found in the current version because of the "#" in front of a couple of the fields for that mushroom in obj.txt. I've unsuccessfully searched here and at the development site.

Also, I've noticed that Power and Balance DSM seems to appear in clusters. I'll get 2 or 3 Power DSM and 6 or 7 Balance DSM and then neither for a long, long time and then another bunch. Is this a known behavior of the RNG?

-Nate

Last edited by Nate; March 31, 2010 at 03:53.
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Old March 30, 2010, 18:59   #2
dhegler
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On a separate note about mushrooms.... Why do they appear so scarcely? I bet I could walk into any cave around here on a hillside and find dozens!

I have played Angband for upteen years (it seems) and a week ago was the first time I ever found BDSM. I have still never found PDSM, but this was the first game I played in 3.1.2.
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Old March 30, 2010, 22:41   #3
Marble Dice
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I believe you are correct; without at least one "A:" allocation line, the mushroom will never spawn. The mushroom's effect (SHROOM_TURB) is not implemented, and so the mushroom would serve no purpose even if you found one.

The appropriate action would have been to comment out the entire entry in object.txt, which will prevent it from appearing in the knowledge menu. I'm not sure why only two lines of the object definition were commented out.

You could say it is a known behavior of the RNG to go on lucky/unlucky streaks, but more specifically, it's just the nature of probability.
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Old March 31, 2010, 03:10   #4
Nate
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Rng

Thanks for the info Marble Dice. I hear you on the luck of the dice. Like coin flips. 10 heads in a row! the coin must be rigged!. How to tell if a series of coin flips is really from flipping a coin or just made up? The made up series won't have enough long runs of one type or the other. I did my Masters thesis on statistically testing for the presence of patterns in piles of sedimentary rocks and I found that there was randomness over short sections of rock types superimposed on a longer term nonrandom cycle. So a longer term periodic cycle of lots of shallow water rock types and then lots of deeper water rock types but within any given section of shallow or deep water rock types, there was no way to predict the order in which the rock types would be deposited. The DSM behavior reminded me of that. A longer term cycle of lots of DSM vs little DSM but within each part of the cycle (lots or little DSM) no way to predict which items will be generated. I know there is some kind of debate about whether RNGs are really random but I don't know anything about the details. Back to the dungeon!
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Old March 31, 2010, 05:17   #5
Sirridan
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IT's always bugged me, what is a mushroom of Turbulence supposed to do?
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Old March 31, 2010, 06:25   #6
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Nothing; its effect hasn't been coded yet.

I suppose it could be speed + starvation. Or speed + confusion.
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Old March 31, 2010, 15:45   #7
Marble Dice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate View Post
I know there is some kind of debate about whether RNGs are really random but I don't know anything about the details. Back to the dungeon!
Almost everyone on this forum will tell you that the RNG is not random, but is in fact deterministic, and that:
  1. The RNG is omnipotent
  2. The RNG is malevolent
  3. The RNG will kill you
  4. If the RNG does not kill you, it is only so the RNG may prolong your suffering
  5. If the RNG gives you something good, it is only so the RNG can take it away
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Old April 1, 2010, 00:21   #8
Zikke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marble Dice View Post
Almost everyone on this forum will tell you that the RNG is not random, but is in fact deterministic, and that:
  1. The RNG is omnipotent
  2. The RNG is malevolent
  3. The RNG will kill you
  4. If the RNG does not kill you, it is only so the RNG may prolong your suffering
  5. If the RNG gives you something good, it is only so the RNG can take it away
The RNG can fry ants with a magnifying glass. At NIGHT.
The RNG can divide by zero.

(and other assorted Chuck Norris facts, too)
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Old April 1, 2010, 16:21   #9
Tiburon Silverflame
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What RNG is being used? Don't feel like digging through the code to find out.
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Old April 1, 2010, 16:55   #10
Derakon
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As I recall, it's a homebrew. Someone ran some tests comparing it to the Mersenne Twister years ago and found that it's of comparable randomness, though.

Ultimately, it's not that the RNG isn't random; it's that people love to anthropomorphize things and see patterns that aren't there.
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