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Old January 20, 2009, 06:38   #1
NeoWizard
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3.1.0: Is it me?

I noticed that it is far easier to dive in 3.1.0, is is me, RNG, or 310?

Anyone else have the same conclusion?
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aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. fi yuo cna raed tihs, palce it in yuor siantugre. Olny 55% of plepoe can. mtat
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Old January 20, 2009, 06:58   #2
Pete Mack
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It's not just you. The huge change in drop quality for out of depth weak monsters is part of what does it. Also, the chances of finding ego items on the floor is much higher, as floor drops havent been reduced, but their quality has gone up.


With the current drop quality, a bunch of snagas at 4500' has essentially the same odds of dropping a Ring of Power as a Great Wyrm of Law.
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Old January 20, 2009, 11:09   #3
hugorune
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Maybe a game option is needed to choose between basing drops off dungeon level, monster level, or a 50/50 mix?
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Old January 20, 2009, 11:24   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hugorune View Post
Maybe a game option is needed to choose between basing drops off dungeon level, monster level, or a 50/50 mix?
Whilst I see where you're coming from, game options really aren't the way to fix game balance issues. Moving back to the 50/50 mix looks like a fair option at this point, though I don't like it much myself.
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Old January 20, 2009, 11:27   #5
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Originally Posted by takkaria View Post
Whilst I see where you're coming from, game options really aren't the way to fix game balance issues. Moving back to the 50/50 mix looks like a fair option at this point, though I don't like it much myself.
The 50/50 mix sounds like the way I'd prefer it as well - although its a nerf to the dive strategy that I don't tend to use, so take that with a grain of salt. What was the reason it was changed?
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Old January 20, 2009, 11:38   #6
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Originally Posted by hugorune View Post
The 50/50 mix sounds like the way I'd prefer it as well - although its a nerf to the dive strategy that I don't tend to use, so take that with a grain of salt. What was the reason it was changed?
There was some discussion on r.g.r.a about it, mainly to do with removing the junk problem. The idea was that if monsters at dlev90 are dropping drops of level 50, then they are very likely to be junk.
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Old January 20, 2009, 15:19   #7
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While it is important to prevent too much junk from being generated, it does seem a little cheesy that at any dungeon depth, your best bet is to just fight the easiest monsters that drop something. Meanwhile, as we've noticed, some of the nice "staple" items aren't dropping as much because of all the other good items crowding them out. I think it's important for the monster level to be part of the calculation, though it doesn't have to be a straight average of mlev and dlev. Other possibilities:

1. 1/4 * mlev + 3/4 * dlev. This still makes you work a little to get the best items.

2. (200-dlev)/400 * mlev + (200+dlev)/400 * dlev. In other words, at early dungeon levels, you are almost taking the straight average of mlev and dlev; near dungeon level 100, you are using the above formula. Other linear interpolations are possible as well, and help grant a healthy mix of items at earlier dungeon levels, while keeping the later ones from being clogged with junk.

I'd say #1 (or another weighted average) would be a good first try.

Another tactic would be to prevent snagas from appearing on DL 90. If I remember correctly, when generating a dungeon and populating it with monsters, the code generates a few monsters at a time and keeps the deepest. What if it wouldn't even consider monsters that were some number of levels shallower (either a fixed constant or different numbers from every monster)? Maybe we never place a monster more than 50 levels deeper than its native depth. That removes some of the cheesiness of killing easy monsters for great loot. Would this make the deepest levels too hard? (I've not been past DL50 very often).
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Old January 20, 2009, 17:03   #8
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Originally Posted by CunningGabe View Post

1. 1/4 * mlev + 3/4 * dlev. This still makes you work a little to get the best items.
I second this one. Maybe give it a try for a while!
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aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. fi yuo cna raed tihs, palce it in yuor siantugre. Olny 55% of plepoe can. mtat
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Old January 20, 2009, 18:00   #9
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Originally Posted by CunningGabe View Post
Another tactic would be to prevent snagas from appearing on DL 90. If I remember correctly, when generating a dungeon and populating it with monsters, the code generates a few monsters at a time and keeps the deepest. What if it wouldn't even consider monsters that were some number of levels shallower (either a fixed constant or different numbers from every monster)?
I've been thinking about how to estimate monster effectiveness against the player, and using that to skew monster generation. (That is, make the weak monsters not be considered during intra-level spawning because they're empirically "harmless".) Sort of a continually rebalancing monster list.
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Old January 20, 2009, 20:15   #10
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[QUOTE=CunningGabe;13987]Another tactic would be to prevent snagas from appearing on DL 90. If I remember correctly, when generating a dungeon and populating it with monsters, the code generates a few monsters at a time and keeps the deepest. What if it wouldn't even consider monsters that were some number of levels shallower (either a fixed constant or different numbers from every monster)? /QUOTE]

O does a similar thing: if level 30 is being generated, the probabilities of monsters shallower than level 20 are divided by 4, and then the probabilities of monsters shallower than level 10 are divided by 4 again.
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