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Old February 28, 2009, 19:04   #1
PaulBlay
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Mining gold balance issues

I did a little test with a new human rogue - bought a shovel and three treasure detection scrolls and went and mined out as much as I find. This is my income from level 1:

Mined gold: 181
On floor gold: 149
Sold items: 320 (-57 for one wasted identify bought)

As you can see there was almost as much money just lying around or dropped by monsters as to be found from magma veins (etc.) If you consider turns taken as well it's far better to go down/up some stairs and walk around again.

Now on to the 'acid test' at dungeon level 10.

I lost 3631 coins from two novice rogue hits! I actually lost more from that than I picked up from the ground or from mining.

Mined + On floor: 1433
Sold items: 10547 (had staff of identify)

Obviously by level 10 you would have to be a complete mug to waste any time mining.

So that said:
Do people actually mine for 'buried treasure'?
and
Should the 'buried treasure' amounts (and or monster coin drops) be bumped up a bunch?
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Old February 28, 2009, 19:36   #2
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Mining is one of those not bad but nearly useless things in Angband. I don't think it should be made useful, but it shouldn't be removed either as it adds a little flavour and can help very beginning characters.
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Old February 28, 2009, 19:44   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by will_asher View Post
Mining is one of those not bad but nearly useless things in Angband. I don't think it should be made useful, but it shouldn't be removed either as it adds a little flavour and can help very beginning characters.
I agree that it adds flavour and I don't want it removed, but I don't see that it really helps very beginning characters.

I don't know what formula is used to calculate 'money drop' from buried treasure but I would like to see it increased enough to make mining at least marginally worth while (although not enough to rival typical item sales from a level).
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Old February 28, 2009, 19:50   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulBlay View Post
So that said:
Do people actually mine for 'buried treasure'?
and
Should the 'buried treasure' amounts (and or monster coin drops) be bumped up a bunch?
If I have an unlimited source of stone to mud, I use that to pick up buried treasure that isn't too far out of the way, and doesn't compromise the dungeon layout. [Regrettably, wall-builder is just too unbalancing to reintroduce from Moria.]
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Old February 28, 2009, 19:54   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulBlay View Post
I agree that it adds flavour and I don't want it removed, but I don't see that it really helps very beginning characters.
It is what it is. Don't expect more. Angband is not a mining game, or even a gold or (non-item) treasure collection game, nor should it be. It is about killing things. Mining is next to useless. It's there for flavor, and flavor is good, but I don't think it was ever meant to be particularly useful. The various diggers are more for hacking your way into vaults than collecting treasure. Heck, some really good players don't even bother picking up GP just lying on the floor.
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Old February 28, 2009, 20:02   #6
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It's just there for color. It makes for nice patterns when you cast Detection near a quartz vein.
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Old February 28, 2009, 20:03   #7
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Originally Posted by buzzkill View Post
It's there for flavor, and flavor is good, but I don't think it was ever meant to be particularly useful.
Back in the dawn of time Angband was Moria, and I seem to recall from my university days (20 years ago?) that it was worth mining in Moria. What would actually be lost from rebalancing mining so it was actually (just) worth doing?

The worst thing that could happen is that the time before you can afford that Potion of Strength / Short Sword of Westerene / White Dragon Scale Mail in the black market drops by 10-20% or so. You'd still have to be able to kill or avoid monsters while you're getting to the 'ore'.
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Old February 28, 2009, 22:02   #8
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I find mining to be useful if you really need money, if wormtounge or smeagol has robbed you of everything you have, or just need some extra cash. The deeper down the better the rewards. When I start a new character I concentrate on selling unidentified scrolls and potions for some starter money. It also identifies everything for you instead taking a risk on trying them all to see what they do.
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Old February 28, 2009, 23:45   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulBlay View Post
Back in the dawn of time Angband was Moria, and I seem to recall from my university days (20 years ago?) that it was worth mining in Moria. What would actually be lost from rebalancing mining so it was actually (just) worth doing?
This was more or less the case with Eddie's patch to Vanilla, which had no selling to stores and a gold multiplier (both mined and dropped) of 3-4x the normal amount, tapering down as you get to the bottom. For someone (like me) who likes to be well-stocked as soon as possible, mining was very lucrative, though probably not absolutely necessary. From say 50'-1500' I would mine most of the deposits I chanced upon, and would occasionally hunt some down in order to afford a quick recall if necessary. I didn't find it to intrude on the gameplay in any negative fashion.
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Old March 1, 2009, 02:38   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulBlay View Post
I lost 3631 coins from two novice rogue hits! I actually lost more from that than I picked up from the ground or from mining.

Mined + On floor: 1433
Sold items: 10547 (had staff of identify)

Obviously by level 10 you would have to be a complete mug to waste any time mining.
And so it shall stay. I want to avoid giving incentives to players to do boring and repetitive things as much as I can; making mining worthwhile would infect the entire gaming experience.
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