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Old June 25, 2009, 08:33   #141
PowerDiver
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Originally Posted by zaimoni View Post
If the projectability/visiblity algorithm was or-symmetrized (it currently isn't for gameplay reasons, but it's a rote change; it might even be worth a birth option), the left-wall example would have the left wall not-visible.
You are agreeing with me. In order to add the property of symmetry, you have to remove the property that an interior square can see the wall.
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Old June 25, 2009, 08:42   #142
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Just a quick question - what problem are we trying to solve here? Is it hockey stick/knight's move attacks? Is there anything else?
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Old June 25, 2009, 08:46   #143
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Just a quick question - what problem are we trying to solve here? Is it hockey stick/knight's move attacks? Is there anything else?
I don't think we know anymore. (Which is another reason I think that forum threads aren't up to this). I don't even know where my "five properties" post is and there are fifteen pages to look through.
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Old June 25, 2009, 09:21   #144
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Just a quick question - what problem are we trying to solve here? Is it hockey stick/knight's move attacks? Is there anything else?
The problem of the hockey stick suggests the goal of symmetric LOS. A separate goal is visible equivalent to targetable. These have not been proven to be good goals, but they have some appeal at first glance.

The overriding restriction I suggested is that you should see a death mold a knights move away in the situation
Code:
m.
.#
#@
so you don't step next to it, but I'm not sure even that has universal appeal. At least I haven't noticed anyone complaining about it yet.

The game is in flux, and if sweeping changes are coming, now is the time to consider them. The drops are currently broken, and game balance in general is off, so it's perhaps less of a burden to break something else now than it may be in the future.

I suppose the point of this thread was to discuss what the LOS/targeting goals should be. I suggested a particular model/implementation to show an example of what could be achieved, but I probably got too excited and presented it as direction rather than an example. In my defense it is a cool model. Later someone posted a link to a better model. Then we started bickering over details related to visibility blockage due to a single # inside a large open area.
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Old June 25, 2009, 09:36   #145
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Just a quick question - what problem are we trying to solve here? Is it hockey stick/knight's move attacks? Is there anything else?
I think that's about it. And I think it is a feature when it comes to monsters that move. Hounds are balanced with that in mind. If you can't kill them in one shot they can still overwhelm you.

But there's another problem- you can dig out a sequence of knight's moves, or an ASC. I don't ever dig to gain a tactical advantage- I think it is really cheap. I think that almost all walls should be permanent, and I play as if they are.

I don't know how long you've been playing bands, but I wonder if you remember Lev. He was King of Bands at one point. He won Z in <50K by abusing every game mechanic he could. I'm still pretty impressed with Lev- he was a very good player. But I have a different philosophy- I only abuse a certain number of things .

One of the big questions about Angband is what constitutes abuse. As far as I am concerned _any_ digging meant to establish a better tactical position is abuse. Yeah- it's in the game. But it allows you to reduce the worst enemies in the game to walking treasure boxes. I don't consider any win that used ASCs at any point a real win.

Every once in a while I wonder what I could do if I really used everything in the game. I could stair-scum- but I guess that's meaningless when scrolls of Deep Descent show up in the BM. I could kill big summoners in ASCs- I guess that is actually done pretty frequently. But I'm a purist about this sort of thing. I only remove stone in order to get at vaults. And I think V would be better if that were the only case in which you could remove stone.
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Old June 25, 2009, 09:37   #146
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The overriding restriction I suggested is that you should see a death mold a knights move away in the situation
Code:
m.
.#
#@
so you don't step next to it, but I'm not sure even that has universal appeal.
Should you even be able to step diagonally between two walls like that?
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Old June 25, 2009, 09:41   #147
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Should you even be able to step diagonally between two walls like that?
You have to be able to, given the current dungeon generation routines. soreha atarimaedarou..
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Old June 25, 2009, 09:52   #148
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You have to be able to, given the current dungeon generation routines. soreha atarimaedarou..
I think everything is up for debate - including dungeon generation.

I think there are only a few vaults where you have to be able to go though gaps like that, 違いますか。
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Old June 25, 2009, 09:58   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulBlay View Post
I think everything is up for debate - including dungeon generation.

I think there are only a few vaults where you have to be able to go though gaps like that, 違いますか。
Chigaimasu yo. There is, for instance, a very common small vault that requires that you pass through that sort of gap. Beyond that you'd have to really rethink Destructed areas, and they are more important than you might think... they're a pain in the ass under most circumstances, but they are very useful for killing certain uniques. Including Morgoth....

You really would have to do some hard thinking to eliminate that.
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Old June 25, 2009, 10:39   #150
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So you don't think you should be able to see the outline of a large lit room when you enter it adjacent to a wall?

This is a key question. If the M horizontally next to a # has an expanding cone of shadow, it cannot see the @. By symmetry, the @ cannot see all of the walls of the room. There is no way around this without changing one of those properties.
I missed this one (I think).

I don't think you should be able to see monsters in the walls for the whole of a large lit room when you enter it adjacent to a wall. I see no reason why walls can't be "special cased" to display when adjacent to lit, visible, floor tiles. Exact details would need to be decided on.
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