thoughts on the Blackguard

[Sky]

i can haz winnar?

  [Angband 4.1.2 Character Dump]

 Name   Ethen        Age             52          Self  RB  CB  EB   Best
 Race   Dunadan      Height        6'0"   STR! 18/100  +1  +2  +8 18/210
 Class  Blackguard   Weight    13st 8lb   INT! 18/100  +2  +0 +10 18/***
 Title  ***WINNER*** Turns used:          WIS! 18/100  +2  -3  +6 18/150
 HP     1027/1027    Game       2004028   DEX! 18/100  +2  +0 +11 18/***
 SP     336/336      Standard    546956   CON! 18/100  +3  +2  +8 18/***
                     Resting     306557

 Level                 50    Armor     [68,+113]    Saving Throw     97%
 Cur Exp         30268000                           Stealth       Superb
 Max Exp         30268000    Melee       9d9,+33    Disarm - phys.  100%
 Adv Exp         ********    To-hit       94,+41    Disarm - magic   93%
                             Blows      9.0/turn    Magic Devices     92
 Gold            11503748                           Searching       100%
 Burden          284.5 lb    Shoot to-dam    +15    Infravision    50 ft
 Overweight      104.6 lb    To-hit       70,+39    Speed      27 (x3.6)
 Max Depth   5000' (L100)    Shots      1.0/turn

 You are one of several children of a Serf.  You are a credit to the
 family.  You have blue-gray eyes, curly brown hair, and an average
 complexion.


rAcid:+++.....+.... Nexus:....+........
rElec:.+....*...... Nethr:.........+...
rFire:++*...+...... Chaos:......+......
rCold:.+....+..*... Disen:+............
rPois:....+........ pFear:+.+....+.....
rLite:.....+....... pBlnd:......+......
rDark:......+...... pConf:.+.......+...
Sound:......+...... pStun:.............
Shard:............. HLife:.............

Regen:............. Stea.:....+..+...+.
  ESP:..........+.. Sear.:....+........
Invis:..+.......... Infra:....+........
FrAct:.++..++..+.+. Tunn.:.........+...
Feath:............. Speed:.+.++..+...+.
S.Dig:..+.......... Blows:..+.....+....
ImpHP:............+ Shots:.............
 Fear:............. Might:.............
Aggrv:............. Light:.............



  [Character Equipment]

a) the Quarterstaff 'Mandimo' (9d9) (+13,+15)
     Found lying on the floor in a vault at 4850 feet (level 97)
     
     Slays evil creatures.
     Branded with weak fire, acid.
     Provides resistance to acid, fire, disenchantment.
     Provides protection from fear.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
     
     Combat info:
     9.0 blows/round.
     Average damage/round: 1212.3 vs. creatures not resistant to fire,
     1662.3 vs. creatures not resistant to acid, 1212.3 vs. evil
     creatures, and 763.2 vs. others.
     
b) the Sling of Cuanimor (x2) (+11,+15) <+2>
     Found lying on the floor in a vault at 3900 feet (level 78)
     
     +2 wisdom.
     +2 speed.
     Provides resistance to acid, lightning, fire, cold.
     Provides protection from confusion.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
     Sustains wisdom.
     Prevents paralysis.  
     
     When activated, it destroys an area around you in the shape of a
     circle radius 15, and blinds you for 1d10+10 turns.
     Takes 352 to 432 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 96.7%
     
c) the Band of Aglion <+5, +4, +2>
     Found lying on the floor in a vault at 3900 feet (level 78)
     
     +5 strength.
     +4 dexterity.
     +2 attack speed.
     Provides immunity to fire.
     Provides resistance to acid.
     Provides protection from fear.
     Cannot be harmed by lightning.
     Sustains strength.
     Slows your metabolism.  Grants the ability to see invisible
     things.  Prevents paralysis.  
     
     When activated, it attempts to magically enhance a piece of
     armour.
     Takes 352 to 432 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 93.9%
     
d) a Ring of Speed <+15>
     Found lying on the floor of a cavern at 4850 feet (level 97)
     
     +15 speed.
     
e) an Amulet of Trickery <+5, +3, +6>
     Found lying on the floor in a vault at 4900 feet (level 98)
     
     +5 dexterity.
     +3 stealth.
     +6 searching skill.
     +5 infravision.
     +3 speed.
     Provides resistance to poison, nexus.
     Sustains dexterity.
     
f) the Lantern of Echor <+2, +4>
     Found lying on the floor of a special room at 1350 feet (level 27)
     
     +2 intelligence.
     +4 wisdom.
     Provides resistance to light.
     Cannot be harmed by fire.
     Sustains dexterity.
     Prevents paralysis.  
     Radius 2 light.
     
g) the Bar Chain Mail 'Celbeonwe' (-2) [45,+14] <+4>
     Dropped by The Mouth of Sauron at 4850 feet (level 97)
     
     +4 constitution.
     Provides immunity to lightning.
     Provides resistance to fire, cold, dark, sound, chaos.
     Provides protection from blindness.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     Prevents paralysis.  
     
     When activated, it heals 5000 hit points, restores experience and
     stats, heals cut damage, and cures stunning, poison, blindness,
     and confusion.
     Takes 619 to 907 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 92.6%
     
h) an Elven Cloak of the Magi [6,+17] <+2, +4, +1>
     Found lying on the floor in a pit at 4300 feet (level 86)
     
     +2 intelligence.
     +4 stealth.
     +1 speed.
     Provides protection from fear.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     Sustains intelligence.
     
i) the Large Metal Shield of Elire [12,+12] <+2>
     Dropped by Lokkak, the Ogre Chieftain at 1600 feet (level 32)
     
     +2 attack speed.
     Provides resistance to acid.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     
j) the Jewel Encrusted Crown 'Narth' [0,+22] <+3, +6, +2>
     Dropped by Ibun, Son of Mîm at 2650 feet (level 53)
     
     +3 strength.
     +6 intelligence.
     +2 tunneling.
     Provides immunity to cold.
     Provides resistance to nether.
     Provides protection from confusion.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     Sustains dexterity.
     Prevents paralysis.  
     
k) the Set of Leather Gloves of Lossaeldi [1,+18] <+2, +4>
     Dropped by Ar-Pharazôn the Golden at 2750 feet (level 55)
     
     +2 dexterity.
     +4 constitution.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
     Grants telepathy.  
     
l) the Pair of Iron Shod Boots of Celch [4,+15] <+4, +10>
     Dropped by Smaug the Golden at 2750 feet (level 55)
     
     +4 stealth.
     +10 speed.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
     Prevents paralysis.  
     




  [Character Inventory]

a) a Necromantic Tome [Bloodwrath] {!d, ignore}
     Cannot be harmed by fire.
     
     You can read this book.
     
b) 36 Potions of *Healing*
     It can be thrown at creatures with damaging effect.
     
c) 21 Potions of Life
     It can be thrown at creatures with damaging effect.
     
d) 3 Potions of Restore Mana
e) 2 Potions of Enlightenment
f) 32 Scrolls of Teleportation
g) 8 Scrolls of Banishment
h) 27 Scrolls of Mass Banishment
i) 31 Scrolls of Rune of Protection
j) 5 Rods of Detection {!d, ignore}
     Cannot be harmed by lightning.
     
k) 5 Rods of Magic Mapping {}
l) 5 Rods of Slow Monster {!d}
m) 19 Rods of Healing
     Cannot be harmed by lightning.
     
n) 9 Rods of Restoration (1 charging)
     Cannot be harmed by lightning.
     
o) 10 Rods of Teleport Other
p) 5 Rods of Recall {!d}
     Cannot be harmed by lightning.
     
q) 7 Rods of Speed
     Cannot be harmed by lightning.
     
r) the Massive Iron Crown of Morgoth [0,+0] <+50, +1>
     Dropped by Morgoth, Lord of Darkness at 5000 feet (level 100)
     
     +50 strength.
     +50 intelligence.
     +50 wisdom.
     +50 dexterity.
     +50 constitution.
     +50 infravision.
     +1 light.
     Provides resistance to acid, lightning, fire, cold, poison, light,
     dark, nexus, nether.
     Provides protection from fear, confusion.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     Grants telepathy.  Grants the ability to see invisible things. 
     Can't be removed.  
     




  [Character Quiver]



  [Home Inventory]

a) 40 Potions of *Healing*
     It can be thrown at creatures with damaging effect.
     
b) 40 Potions of Restore Mana
c) 28 Potions of Enlightenment
d) the Pendant of Angon (+2,+8) <+3, +2>
     Found lying on the floor in a vault at 3950 feet (level 79)
     
     +3 intelligence.
     +2 wisdom.
     Provides resistance to dark, disenchantment.
     Provides protection from fear.
     Speeds regeneration.  
     
e) the Necklace of Rielen <+4>
     Found lying on the floor in a vault at 3700 feet (level 74)
     
     +4 speed.
     Provides immunity to cold.
     Sustains your life force.  
     
f) the Necklace 'Viend' <+4, +2>
     Dropped by Adunaphel the Quiet at 3250 feet (level 65)
     
     +4 intelligence.
     +2 wisdom.
     Provides immunity to acid.
     Provides resistance to lightning, fire, light.
     Provides protection from fear.
     Prevents paralysis.  
     
g) the Jewel 'Falduath' <+3, +4>
     Found lying on the floor in a vault at 3350 feet (level 67)
     
     +3 strength.
     +4 dexterity.
     Provides resistance to cold.
     Provides protection from fear, blindness.
     Feather Falling.  Prevents paralysis.  
     
     When activated, it fires a line of light in all directions, each
     one causing light-sensitive creatures 6d8 damage.
     Takes 147 to 162 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 92.6%
     
h) the Jewel of Mingon <+3, +2>
     Found lying on the floor in a vault at 1100 feet (level 22)
     
     +3 intelligence.
     +2 constitution.
     Provides resistance to acid, nether.
     Sustains constitution.
     
     When activated, it grants temporary resistance to acid for 1d10+10
     turns.
     Takes 118 to 129 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 95.9%
     
i) the Jewel of Minurech <+3>
     Found lying on the floor in a vault at 1100 feet (level 22)
     
     +3 strength.
     +3 wisdom.
     Provides resistance to poison.
     
j) the Red Dragon Scale Mail of Celdol (-2) [24,+27] <+6, +5>
     Found lying on the floor in a vault at 4850 feet (level 97)
     
     +6 wisdom.
     +5 speed.
     Provides resistance to acid, lightning, fire, cold, poison, light,
     dark, sound, shards, nether, chaos, disenchantment.
     Provides protection from fear, blindness, confusion.
     Sustains intelligence.
     Slows your metabolism.  Speeds regeneration.  
     
     When aimed, it breathes a cone of fire with width 20 degrees,
     dealing 200 damage at the source.
     Takes 180 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 95.9%
     
k) the Red Dragon Scale Mail of Ruinwe (-2) [24,+30] <+3>
     Dropped by a lesser Balrog at 4550 feet (level 91)
     
     +3 strength.
     It causes your melee attacks to slay giants, evil creatures.
     Provides immunity to fire.
     Provides resistance to acid, lightning, cold, poison, light, dark.
     Provides protection from fear, blindness, confusion.
     Sustains strength.
     
     When aimed, it breathes a cone of fire with width 20 degrees,
     dealing 200 damage at the source.
     Takes 180 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 93.9%
     
l) the Green Dragon Scale Mail 'Belfinath' (+6,+7) [20,+30] <+3>
     Dropped by a shadow at 4850 feet (level 97)
     
     +3 constitution.
     +3 stealth.
     +3 speed.
     Provides resistance to acid, lightning, fire, cold, poison, dark,
     sound.
     Provides protection from fear, blindness.
     Sustains dexterity.
     Slows your metabolism.  Prevents paralysis.  
     
     When aimed, it breathes a cone of poison gas with width 20
     degrees, dealing 150 damage at the source.
     Takes 180 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 96.3%
     
m) the Augmented Chain Mail 'Hallinya' (-2) [42,+15] <+6, +4, +1>
     Found lying on the floor in a vault at 4850 feet (level 97)
     
     +6 constitution.
     +4 stealth.
     +1 light.
     Provides resistance to poison, light, sound, disenchantment.
     Provides protection from blindness.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     Sustains your life force.  
     
     When activated, it teleports you one level up or down.
     Takes 442 to 594 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 94.9%
     
n) the Partial Plate Armour 'Laireth' (-3) [40,+18] <+2, +3>
     Dropped by Tselakus, the Dreadlord at 3500 feet (level 70)
     
     +2 intelligence.
     +3 wisdom.
     +3 dexterity.
     +3 constitution.
     +3 stealth.
     Provides resistance to cold, poison, dark, sound, disenchantment.
     Provides protection from blindness.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     
     When activated, it grants electricity resistance for d20+20 turns
     and creates a lightning ball of damage 85.
     Takes 324 to 396 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 96.3%
     
o) the Ribbed Plate Armour 'Curth' (-3) [66,+15] <+2, +1, +5, +4>
     Dropped by The Witch-King of Angmar at 4300 feet (level 86)
     
     +2 dexterity.
     +1 constitution.
     +5 stealth.
     +4 searching skill.
     Provides resistance to fire, light, nexus, nether.
     Provides protection from fear.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     Slows your metabolism.  Grants the ability to see invisible
     things.  
     
     When activated, it creates a fire bolt with damage 16d8.
     Takes 262 to 291 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 94.9%
     
p) the Leather Scale Mail 'Minqueng' (-1) [20,+9] <+5, +4>
     Dropped by a young gold dragon at 4850 feet (level 97)
     
     +5 intelligence.
     +4 wisdom.
     +4 dexterity.
     Provides immunity to fire.
     Provides resistance to light, disenchantment.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
     
q) the Iron Crown 'Caldolas' [0,+13] <+5>
     Dropped by Saruman of Many Colours at 3350 feet (level 67)
     
     +5 speed.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     
     When activated, it fires a line of light in all directions, each
     one causing 10d8 damage.
     Takes 205 to 226 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 95.9%
     
r) the Jewel Encrusted Crown of Osgalmor [0,+11] <+3>
     Dropped by a great storm wyrm at 4900 feet (level 98)
     
     +3 intelligence.
     Provides resistance to nexus.
     Provides protection from blindness, confusion, stunning.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     Grants telepathy.  Grants the ability to see invisible things.  
     
s) the Hard Leather Cap 'Heltarth' [2,+18]
     Dropped by Medusa, the Gorgon at 3550 feet (level 71)
     
     Provides resistance to fire, poison, dark.
     Provides protection from blindness.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     Sustains wisdom.
     Grants telepathy.  Grants the ability to see invisible things.  
     
t) the Iron Helm of Entin [7,+16] <+2>
     Dropped by a sorcerer at 4300 feet (level 86)
     
     +2 intelligence.
     Provides resistance to light, dark, disenchantment.
     Provides protection from fear, blindness.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     Sustains dexterity.
     Sustains your life force.  
     
u) the Steel Helm of Malquen [9,+20] <+4, +3, +1>
     Found lying on the floor in a vault at 4800 feet (level 96)
     
     +4 intelligence.
     +3 wisdom.
     +4 dexterity.
     +1 light.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     Sustains strength.
     Feather Falling.  Grants the ability to see invisible things. 
     Prevents paralysis.  
     
     When activated, it causes an earthquake around you.
     Takes 147 to 162 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 94.9%
     
v) the Steel Helm 'Cuthiloki' [9,+19] <+3>
     Found lying on the floor in a vault at 4900 feet (level 98)
     
     +3 intelligence.
     Provides resistance to nether.
     Provides protection from blindness.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     Speeds regeneration.  Grants the ability to see invisible things. 
     Prevents paralysis.  Sustains your life force.  
     
w) the Set of Gauntlets of Lomurin [3,+21] <+4>
     Dropped by Gothmog, the High Captain of Balrogs at 4650 feet
     (level 93)
     
     +4 constitution.
     Provides immunity to fire.
     Provides resistance to lightning, cold.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
     Sustains your life force.  
     
x) the Sling of Aragorth (x2) (+8,+15) <+5>
     Found lying on the floor in a vault at 4850 feet (level 97)
     
     +5 strength.
     Provides resistance to acid, poison, disenchantment.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
     Grants the ability to see invisible things.  
     
     When activated, it restores your strength.
     Takes 295 to 360 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 94.9%

well, this game was pretty much over by DL32. I found a Ring Of Speed +13 on DL27 (unmatched until much later on, DL98) and a shield of +2 blows on DL32, then finally a Ring Of Power with *Fire, +2 blows, and after *much* grinding, the quarterstaff of whoneedsgrond 9d9 acid brand slay evil.

anyway, here's my thoughts on the blackguard, now that the slowdowns have been successfully removed.

1. you have no mana to cast any spell until idk, CL30. even playing as a Dunedain. I imagine you could have more mana putting points into INT which isn't gonna happen with a warrior, which is what you are. I would remove the Dirty Fighting book from the starting gear entirely, and raise the spell minimum levels.

The Berserk spell is useful but with 20sp cost you'll likely only have 1 shot at casting it. At CL25 i have 20 !!! mana points and 26% fail rate with 14 INT which is base blackguard + 2 points on a Dunedain.

i have never even cast piercing shot. My ranged damage is pitiful (66) and my melee damage is awesome (at least 500). I did cast Throw Monster for laughs and while i can see it be useful is some rare situations, given that you melee exceedingly well, you'll want the opposite. Also, you'll be CL40 or so before you have the spellbook and can cast this, so again, not really useful. By the time i can cast it, i do not need to disengage a unique, because i will be able to decide when and where to attack, or teleport away, or TO them.

I used successfully Cry Of The Damned while surrounded by breeders and i think it has saved my life.

I have cast Forceful Blow once but i am not sure if it does extra damage, it quickly fell off my radar.

I wish there was a taunt / wake mob / aggravate spell.

i have never used the Bless spell (Dark Focus).

i have never managed to cast successfully .. in combat, that is, not in town ... the spell Poison Brand. By the time i can cast this, i will already have a brand on my artifact weapon, and maybe there will be a case where a unique is immune to my brand but not to poison, but that hasn't happened in this run. Since it's a new build, i don't have the monster memory, and couldn't remember which unique was immune to what (mostly).



essentially the whole deal of the blackguard is the shield bash; why doesn't this character start with a shield? anyway, you're what every warrior should be, and once you get in melee range, i don't really see the reason to do anything else but whack your enemy.

stun from the shield bash is much less stunlock-ey than before, but yet even at 5 blows you are better than a warrior. Honestly, i don't think Angband has room, in the rules, for a Blackguard - you are just making the warrior redundant. The fact that you can stun mobs without using 1) a charge from a wand, and 2) an action, and given how useful stun is, it's an easy trade for any melee character.




*maybe* if Nick wants to keep the Blackguard as a class, he could consider this:

1. max 4 blows per round, but with its own power curve where it reaches maxblows rather early on.

2. stronger spells linked to death and necromancy. kinda like now, but with Nether Brand, maybe some AOE. Make it into a caster class. AOE debuffs seem the way to go.

3. make Bloodlust the equivalent of Word Of Destruction, a late-game spell that costs a ton and has high fail, but devastates everything: bless+ blows + damage with Drain Exp and Cursed Weapon as a downside.




the thing is, we're not really upsetting the status quo.

you've got

the warrior, which does: it bonks people on the head

the ranger: it bonks people on the head from far away

the mage: best ranged but weak AF, has the best dungeon control spells.

the paladin: not great but with strong defense

the priest: puny attack but almost impossible to kill

the rogue (which is where the blackguard should be): multi-role with great utility


while the blackguard fits exactly in the definition of the warrior: it bonks people on the head. it doesn't heal, it doesn't defend, it has no dungeon control, horrible ranged, no detection, but it excels at killing stuff .. which it shouldn't.

[gglibertine]

I realise I'm necrocommenting, but... yeah. All of these observations about the Blackguard are spot on. In order for the spells to be useful you'd need to put way too many points in INT, and even then the initial spellbook just isn't all that useful. ?Blessing and !Berserk are so common that having them as spells at such high levels (and costing so much mana) isn't worth it. At CL27 I still can't cast Poison Brand. Shield bashes are nice and all, but I am not finding this class worth playing overall, and the only reason I haven't given up is that my character hasn't died yet.

I feel like the Blackguard needs something more to make it worthwhile. I like Sky's suggestions, but thematically, maybe an innate resistance to poison or nether?

[Sky]

It's taken 4 months for anyone to notice this thread.

My guess is that everyone is playing necromancer or druid and ignoring the blackguard because blackguard "is a dumb character".

[Nick]

Thanks, have noted this for future changes. Very briefly, spells should be more important and shield bashing less.

[Sky]

I think that a bash that stuns as often as it does now, is worth far more than 1 blow. It makes the blackguard stronger in melee than a warrior without even considering the spellcasting.
I would reimagine the bg as a true hybrid, with aoe attacks (non ranged), shouts, taunts, poison and nether based spells. You would need to bring him down to 4 blows max, though. Maybe also look at mana values, too. As a hybrid, it needs to be able to cast (kinda; like a rogue, more or less).

[Nick]

Originally Posted by Sky

I think that a bash that stuns as often as it does now, is worth far more than 1 blow. It makes the blackguard stronger in melee than a warrior without even considering the spellcasting.

In the latest master shield bashes have been nerfed a bit, and warriors and paladins get them.

Originally Posted by Sky

I would reimagine the bg as a true hybrid, with aoe attacks (non ranged), shouts, taunts, poison and nether based spells. You would need to bring him down to 4 blows max, though. Maybe also look at mana values, too. As a hybrid, it needs to be able to cast (kinda; like a rogue, more or less).

The intent is for there to be three real fighter classes - warrior, paladin and blackguard. Paladin and blackguard get less good fighting fundamentals than warrior, but have spells that are fundamentally to improve their combat rather than for direct damage.

[Sky]

Nick, i trust you'll do a good job just like i trust you'll buff ranger archery back to decent levels.

[Grotug]

Wow. Just wow. This is the most broken endgame character I think I've ever seen. Wow. Just wow.

Holy smoke!

[Pete Mack]

Yeah, I don't think you can conclude much about the blackguard class given that ridiculous ramdart set. You can certainly draw conclusions about randarts tho'.

[Derakon]

Here's a thought: since we're splitting apart the spell books so thoroughly, there's not really much call for classes to be differentiated based on how competent they are at using spells, right? I mean, you can keep the min 5% failure rate for hybrid characters, but I feel like any spell that's class-specific should have a failure rate set such that that class can reliably use the spell at a point where it'd be helpful.

In short, maybe spell failure rates ought to be dictated solely (or at least primarily) by level, with your casting stat just determining how much mana you get.