Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old February 20, 2019, 16:23   #221
PowerWyrm
Prophet
 
PowerWyrm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,672
PowerWyrm is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
The basic dragon types all have baby, young, mature, ancient, and great-wyrm variants. The more exotic ones have drake and great-wyrm variants. Except now there's a couple of dragon types that only have drake or that only have great-wyrm. I don't think it's vital to hew to the previously-established pattern -- I'll admit I never questioned why the Sky Drake in ToME was a 'D' and didn't have a lesser 'd' version. But I also don't see why we'd remove perfectly functional dragon types. Great Wyrms of Law have probably one of the nastier sets of breath options in the game (sound/shards), and Great Wyrms of Chaos had some neat mental imagery to them. And I don't feel like the game has too many dragons in it currently
Agreed. That's why I reworked the dragons in PWMAngband so each breed has full baby-young-mature-ancient-wyrm evolution, and I've even split the wyrms into Great Wyrm (+10 speed, SUMMON_DRAGON) and Ancient Wyrm (+20 speed, SUMMON_HI_DRAGON) for even more challenge at depths 90+. The only "lone" dragons remaining are Draco-lisks/liches and Sky Drakes.
__________________
PWMAngband variant maintainer - check http://powerwyrm.monsite-orange.fr (or http://www.mangband.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=9) to learn more about this new variant!
PowerWyrm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 20, 2019, 16:28   #222
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8,938
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Related question: what does Dragon Scale Mail of Annihilation do? What about Sky Dragon Scale Mail?
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 21, 2019, 02:32   #223
Grotug
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,169
Grotug is on a distinguished road
Don't quite understand why Law and Chaos dragons are being replaced, but very glad great wyrms of balance remain untouched. But isn't a wyrm of balance a combination of Law and Chaos? By that virtue alone, Law and Chaos dragons should remain untouched. If Sky and Annihilation are simply name changes for Law and Chaos; I think it'd be better to leave the names as they are now and just add Annihilation and Sky dragons for the simple reason that Finding Dragon Scale Mail of Annihilation kinda implies armor on similar caliber as PDSM, not less power than Balance dragon scale mail.

Great Sky Wyrm sounds nice as an addition to dragonkind. So does Great Wyrm of Annihilation. Would it hurt somehow to add these dragons without replacing others? Great Wyrm of Annihilation could have native depth of 92, deeper even than GWofBalance and even more terrible. The name 'Great Wyrm of Annihilation' kinda sounds like it should be the most terrible non unique dragon (and I've always wondered why we don't actually have a corresponding dragon to PDSM; GWofAnnhilation could be it: it breathes and resists everything but nether and nexus, has 4800hp and moves very quickly).

I do like "terrified yeek", I think it feels right and is more descriptive than brown yeek.

I don't mind neekerbreekers being moved deeper because they can be problematic at any depth, but I don't see the need to touch hummerhorns. Putting them any deeper than they have been and it's too likely @ will have _Teleportation by the time @ encounters them, rendering them less interesting. The depth they were at actually makes them more interesting than any other depth they could be found at. The deeper @ encounters them, the less interesting they are, because they become less dangerous and simply annoying. Again, I don't see the benefit of moving them deeper. Hummerhorns were pretty much perfect at their current depth. When I see them before I have _Teleportation, I know I need to be extra carerful!

Thank you for still holding out the possibility of bringing back Osse sans Nether breath. Maybe he should breathe Chaos instead?

Ice vs Snow:
It seems to me there is a long held tradition for Ice having connotations with evil, whereas snow mostly connotes with fluffy sorts of fun (snowmen, school days, sledding, snowball fights etc...). Maybe as an Aussie this is less obvious to you if you don't see much snow. At any rate, I'm not sure that the vague Tolkien association with "snow" will not be lost on pretty much everyone (though I appreciate your attention to detail re;Tolkien!); and therefore is probably not a worthwhile change. I imagine for this reason alone; and to hold some kind of consistency with the greater lore/consciousness at large (cross-platforms, cross mediums) Ice troll...giant... whatever, should remain Ice, and not be changed to snow. Maybe snow troll could be added as a weaker, younger brother to ice trolls? (just as white wolves are weaker versions of cold hounds). I actually don't mind "snow troll" and it kinda has a nice ring to it, but personally I'd much rather have it added than replacing ice trolls. But maybe an an appeal to tradition is, as fph points out in another certain thread, not always the wisest or best way forward.

Given that we have hill orc, having hill troll seems reasonable to me. I never did understand what a water troll was (a troll that lives near water? lives in water? swims around in the water?) Here I think is a missed opportunity to bring in some themes from Beowulf: namely from the bog or fen. This seems like a very fitting theme for Angband and I seem to recall from my Beowulf class many years ago that the bog or fen has a rich history in the mythologies that influenced Tolkien; and it played a pretty big part in Lord of the Rings (the marshes).

Hearthstone has two such thematic creatures: The Bog Creeper and the Fen Creeper. I think these are great names for monsters in Angband. Probably a bit late for me to be suggesting such creatures now, but maybe sometime down the line they could be considered: if we are going to lose a "water" monster (one I never cared for), maybe we could replace it with something much better: Fen Creeper and give it Grendel's description (the only one I could find at the moment is from some cliff notes:

"Although Grendel looks something like a man — having two arms (or claws), two legs, and one head — he is much larger and can defeat dozens of men at a time. He is protected from man's weapons by a magic charm. He devours some of the dead on the spot and carries others back to his lair, the cave he shares with his mother beneath a pool of water in a dark swamp. (Sounds like a wicked video game villain, doesn't he?)" That he does! *wink *wink. Although maybe Grendel was more of an Ogre than a Troll. While I'm at it I wonder if we shouldn't get Grendel as a unique in Angband?

Fury sounds good! Look forward to encountering it; a proper name for a deep dangerous demon.
__________________
Detailed account of my Ironman win here.
Grotug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 21, 2019, 02:44   #224
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8,938
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Regarding ice: how about Frost Trolls? We have Frost Giants already, and I agree that "Snow Troll" sounds a little unintimidating.

I dig the bog/fen suggestion for water trolls.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 21, 2019, 03:24   #225
wobbly
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 2,102
wobbly is on a distinguished road
I prefer snow trolls to ice trolls which always confuse me a little: Is it a troll made of ice? or a troll that lives on a glacier?

Furys I'm going to continually misread as Furries but don't let that influence your decisions.

Re dragons: Baby Wyrms of Power was a missed opportunity for cute-ness IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grotug View Post
"Although Grendel looks something like a man — having two arms (or claws), two legs, and one head — he is much larger and can defeat dozens of men at a time. He is protected from man's weapons by a magic charm. He devours some of the dead on the spot and carries others back to his lair, the cave he shares with his mother beneath a pool of water in a dark swamp. (Sounds like a wicked video game villain, doesn't he?)" That he does! *wink *wink. Although maybe Grendel was more of an Ogre than a Troll. While I'm at it I wonder if we shouldn't get Grendel as a unique in Angband?
Grendel is in the heng-likes as an Ogre.
wobbly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 21, 2019, 12:09   #226
Nick
Vanilla maintainer
 
Nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canberra, Australia
Age: 54
Posts: 7,860
Donated: $60
Nick will become famous soon enough
Trolls: I went with snow troll because of the quote; I'd be happy to revert them to ice trolls if people preferred, though.

Dragons - Sky Dragons I already liked from O/FA. Then when I was looking at the really deep non-unique dragons, we had one that breathed sound and shards, one that breathed chaos and disenchantment, one that breathed sound and shards and chaos and disenchantment, and one that breathed the basics and poison - and it just seemed we could do with better variety. I didn't think of the implications for dragon scale mail, I must admit - but we already have PDSM with no power dragons, so that's not necessarily a disaster.

I must say, I find the whole law/chaos/balance thing a bit forced. I can understand the concept, and chaos and disenchantment work fine for the chaotic side, but I don't really see anything particularly lawful about sound and shards.

I wouldn't mind a bit of tidying up there, but I am really happy with the new deep dragons, especially the wyrms of annihilation

Hummerhorns only moved two levels deeper - I don't think that really matters either way.
__________________
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
Nick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 21, 2019, 14:29   #227
Carnivean
Knight
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 526
Carnivean is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
Trolls: I went with snow troll because of the quote; I'd be happy to revert them to ice trolls if people preferred, though.
I vote to keep the new name.

Quote:
we already have PDSM with no power dragons
This is something that should be fixed! Bring back the Power Dragon (even though I'm fairly certain they never existed).

In general I agree with the gist of Derakon's analysis and Powerwyrm's points. It makes sense that the dragons/drakes/wyrms should be available in different threat levels and that the dragon armours should match the family of D's that they come from. Having items that have no clear origin is confusing. Having each element belong to a type of D/ a type of D for each element makes intuitive sense too.

Balance/Chaos/Law dragons don't make a ton of sense unless they fit the above pattern. I'm fairly certain that they're from a D&D background too, relating to the alignments from that game.

I also like the idea of Greater Wyrms and think that dragons should only be able to summon from the level below their own.
Carnivean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 21, 2019, 15:45   #228
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8,938
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivean View Post
This is something that should be fixed! Bring back the Power Dragon (even though I'm fairly certain they never existed).
I think ZAngband was the first variant to introduce Great Wyrms of Power, able to breathe every element, of course resistant to every element too, and with massive health pools and some unpleasant melee damage. I think the ZAngband version also has all the elemental auras, which damage you slightly each time you hit them in melee.

Having Great Wyrms of Balance without the Law/Chaos versions is definitely strange, especially since Law Drakes and Chaos Drakes are still in the game per your listed changes.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 21, 2019, 16:03   #229
PowerWyrm
Prophet
 
PowerWyrm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,672
PowerWyrm is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
I don't really see anything particularly lawful about sound and shards.
Cops enforce the law... but how many are lawful?

But yeah, the law/chaos/balance names seem to directly come from D&D's lawful/chaotic/neutral alignments and I'd also like to find a good name for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
I think ZAngband was the first variant to introduce Great Wyrms of Power, able to breathe every element, of course resistant to every element too, and with massive health pools and some unpleasant melee damage. I think the ZAngband version also has all the elemental auras, which damage you slightly each time you hit them in melee.
PWMAngband has... Ancient Wyrms of Power. I think the only difference between that and ToME's GWoP is that they don't breathe disintegration

Note: the Sky Drake from ToME breathes sound/lightning/gravity and not sound/shards, which seems more thematic for a "sky" dragon.
__________________
PWMAngband variant maintainer - check http://powerwyrm.monsite-orange.fr (or http://www.mangband.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=9) to learn more about this new variant!
PowerWyrm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 21, 2019, 19:00   #230
Pete Mack
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,403
Donated: $40
Pete Mack is on a distinguished road
Nick- doesn't FA's sky dragon mostly breath electricity? That is the nastiest base element by far. (Only mage casters double resist, immunity is rare, and usually does 2x more damage than acid or poison.)
Pete Mack is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bug: can see monster, monster term doesn't show it. Timo Pietilš Vanilla 4 June 10, 2014 11:45
Monster Pits vs. Monster Nests TricksterWolf Vanilla 6 June 20, 2013 21:26
Feature Request on monster memory fyonn Vanilla 10 July 29, 2010 20:09
Feature request: breath/spell damage in monster memory Marble Dice Vanilla 7 October 21, 2009 08:17
Feature request: scramble the monster list when hallucinating! jv123 Vanilla 2 May 18, 2009 03:30


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:37.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.