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Old September 10, 2010, 13:59   #1
fizzix
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reduce artifact drop rate

The game is too easy and therefore too boring. If I can't physically dive fast enough to keep myself at an interesting level, there's a problem.
There are two big culprits. One is that artifacts drop so commonly that you are likely to have every significant hole covered well before you need it. The other is that with the increased rates of the +1/-1 potions and the stat gain potions, you can have your stats maxed relatively quickly. The change in drop formula helps a bit, but it's been completely counteracted by the change in drop rates.

I don't care that there are useless artifacts, but finding 80 of them in 500k turns doesn't seem good. 35-40 is about right for that length, let egos fill the remaining slots. Egos are good enough. Too many artifacts are dropping, it ruins the idea that these are special items.

For stat gain, I would recommend backing off on the +1/-1 potions a big, maybe keep them the same rate but change the level to 20-30 or so. Stat gain potions should be rarer. To avoid tedium, make augmentation common and a dlevel 60 item. Or, leave augmentation as is and rare and bring back *augmentation* and make it common at dlevel 60. dlevel 60 because then Ancient dragons will drop it at dlevel 80.

The idea is to bring back some of the difficulty in the midgame, where if you're going to dive, you're going to do it without being able to handle most of the monsters you encounter. At the same point, if you want to scum for stat gain at dlevel 30-35 you should be able to. This is very helpful for newcomers.

Right now the game seems less fun than it has in a while. I guess that means it's time to start playing variants again.
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Old September 10, 2010, 14:15   #2
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I agree on too many artifacts. But is it just randart problem, or standarts too? Anyways, deffo too many randarts.

I agree on stat potions partly, and think +1/-1 needs to really be +1/-1 not current around "+3" at 18. As for levels, upping lower level to 20 is fine by me if the static +1/-1 is not done, if it is it won't matter that much to me personally. Since stat gain is a thing that some people will farm for at 30-35, I don't agree normal stat potions should be reduced, as it only increases tedium for them, whereas divers tend to dive whether they get some stats or not.

As for whether it is fun or not, well I like powerful chars and dislike tedium, so I don't feel too bad about current gameplay. Except that ego items are so overshadowed by the too early atleast appearance of too many artifacts... I don't mind if past level 80 artifacts were dime a dozen, but having many artifacts before going past stat-gain? Naah...
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Old September 10, 2010, 14:23   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ewert View Post
I whereas divers tend to dive whether they get some stats or not.
The problem is that in my last game I wasn't able to physically dive fast enough before I had all the needed stats and resists. That's the problem. I could have done it with stair scumming or create stairs, but do we really want to encourage these? We could eliminate half of the dungeon levels I guess, but there's huge opposition to that.
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Old September 10, 2010, 21:20   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
The problem is that in my last game I wasn't able to physically dive fast enough before I had all the needed stats and resists. That's the problem. I could have done it with stair scumming or create stairs, but do we really want to encourage these? We could eliminate half of the dungeon levels I guess, but there's huge opposition to that.
Artifact generation is merely a supplementary issue to ego-item generation, which is supplementary to magic item generation etc.

The real problem is that in an effort to solve TMJ, a far greater proportion of weapon and armour drops are {good} or {excellent} than was previously the case. Since you are probably squelching most of those before you're halfway through the game, it appears that the problem is related to artifacts, but it isn't.

If there is a consensus around this problem, it's definitely time to do a partial revert on the increase in ego items.
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Old September 11, 2010, 15:06   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
Artifact generation is merely a supplementary issue to ego-item generation, which is supplementary to magic item generation etc.

The real problem is that in an effort to solve TMJ, a far greater proportion of weapon and armour drops are {good} or {excellent} than was previously the case. Since you are probably squelching most of those before you're halfway through the game, it appears that the problem is related to artifacts, but it isn't.

If there is a consensus around this problem, it's definitely time to do a partial revert on the increase in ego items.
I disagree. The problem is related to too many ego items getting changed to artifacts.
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Old September 11, 2010, 18:40   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
I disagree. The problem is related to too many ego items getting changed to artifacts.
For that to be true, you would need to show that this has been changed. As far as I am aware, the chance of an ego item becoming an artifact has not been changed since 2.8.x or even earlier.

There is one other possibility, which is that randarts have become much much more common than standarts. For this to be the case, you would need to be confident that standarts are precisely as rare (relative to ego items) as they ever were, but randarts drop much more frequently. Is this what you're saying?
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Old September 12, 2010, 05:34   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
For that to be true, you would need to show that this has been changed. As far as I am aware, the chance of an ego item becoming an artifact has not been changed since 2.8.x or even earlier.
The OP isn't about ego/artifact ratio, it's about absolute artifact abundance.

The conversion to MAX(monster native depth, actual native depth) from averaging, unless reverted, will cause a faster standard-artifact generation rate in the early mid-game, in the absence of a compensating reduction in the ego to artifact conversion rate.
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Old September 12, 2010, 05:51   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaimoni View Post
The OP isn't about ego/artifact ratio, it's about absolute artifact abundance.

The conversion to MAX(monster native depth, actual native depth) from averaging, unless reverted, will cause a faster standard-artifact generation rate in the early mid-game, in the absence of a compensating reduction in the ego to artifact conversion rate.
That has already been partially reverted. Currently, if the monster's depth is deeper, that is used, otherwise current depth and monster depth are averaged.

This is slightly more generous than a strict average, but only in the case where you are fighting a monster at a shallower depth than it's normally found on.
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Old September 12, 2010, 05:55   #9
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Originally Posted by d_m View Post
That has already been partially reverted. Currently, if the monster's depth is deeper, that is used, otherwise current depth and monster depth are averaged.
Ok (knew changes were planned, but didn't take the time to sift trac before replying).
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Old September 12, 2010, 06:03   #10
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Increase rate and someone will complain is to too easy. Decrease rate and someone will complain they are farming too much, instead of moving through the game. Finding the right balance is really not possible because it depends on the type of player, how they play and what they like to do. Some hate farming, others love it. Some like it hot, others prefer it easy.

Go either way and someone will complain. Since the topic is actually "the game is too easy", I always found the greatest solutions those which are created by the players. The game offers several classes and races combinations that can make for a difficult game. It also offers some interesting ironman options. And you can always create your own. But mostly the game doesn't force you to quaff a potion or use an artifact.

The frame of mind necessary to actually have the nerve to drop or sell a godly object you just found is, I admit, not easy to achieve. But once you do and start exercising that power when you see fit, you'll experience what I consider the one and true meaning of the term Advanced Gameplay.

I apologize if I sound overly conceited. I just find it frustrating as a game developer myself and a gamer for 30 years, that gamers insist in not seeing the incredible power they have to completely alter a game experience without the need to change one line of code in the original game. Instead they choose to request changes tailored to their specific needs, but that will affect everyone, no matter their background, experience or even natural ability to play the game.

Last edited by krugar; September 12, 2010 at 06:25.
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