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Old July 18, 2011, 23:02   #1
UglySquirrell
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Rogue Ideas

So, I understand a some people see the rogue as a adventurer, and not a thief. I've always played them as a thief though. A lot, and was wondering if we could make them able to work in the shadows more. Hengband has a ninja class that sees in the dark, the spell to create light is a darkness spell instead, but the game shows tiles like there the torchlit tiles. Made enlightenment potions or items a little risky to use, because they light the level up. You could give the rogue an ac stealth and saving throw bonus, well in shadows. Maybe a hide in darkness spell. Phase door or teleport then cast darkness on landing. Using pluss light artifacts was fun too because you'd have to find a light or helm of darkness to compensate. I like the idea of dual wielding as well. Give rogues dual wield but no shield and a Max of 4 blows, limit them to light weapons but an increased chance of criticals on sleeping enemies. This would make sneaking more fun in my opinion, if you manage to sneak up and backstab a sleeping enemy, its almost dead before it gets a turn, but against awake mobs you're damage is fairly weak. Maybe you could change the spellbooks to kits, trapping kit with teleport other, pits, caltrops, sleep. Faangband, has a heat trapping system. A smoke and mirrors kit with create darkness, phase door,teleport, door creation, darkness. A poisoning kit, poison dart spell, paralyze, brand weapon with acid or poison, brand arrows with the same. Changing sleep to paralyze and letting it work on all living creatures, barring uniques, with a failure rate of course could be fun too.

Well just some thoughts, cheers.
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Old July 18, 2011, 23:15   #2
bulian
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Why not just play hengband?
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Old July 18, 2011, 23:45   #3
UglySquirrell
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I really enjoy how much work and ideas, are put into vanilla. Its a lot of fun following development and seeing, what's next.
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Old July 19, 2011, 00:17   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulian View Post
Why not just play hengband?
The existence of variants doesn't mean that interesting ideas shouldn't be considered for vanilla as well. It seems that class differentiation has become a topic of discussion that several people are interested in, based on the level of response to the mage thread.

The darkness ideas probably are more variant material, but backstab and trap creation are pretty interesting especially if vanilla moves toward flavoured traps with more varied effects.

Edit: Just had an idea to go along with flavoured traps. What if Rogues (and only Rogues) could not only disarm traps, but pick some of them up to use against monsters? I'm thinking something along the lines of a Glyph of Warding but with effects like teleport, fire, and anything else traps can do (within reason - I wouldn't expect a rogue to be able to set up a trap door).

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Old July 19, 2011, 00:36   #5
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Unangband has the Thief, which takes away the Rogue's magic and instead makes their stealth go up with clev. You can also pickpocket monsters instead of fighting them. It's pretty interesting.
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Old July 19, 2011, 00:54   #6
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A move like "Execute" would be cool, if a Rogue is stealthed next to a non-mechanical target, this move would have a chance based on monter/char level difference to insta-kill (wouldn't work on uniques).
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Old July 19, 2011, 09:59   #7
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class differentiation

Quote:
Originally posted by Jazerus
It seems that class differentiation has become a topic of discussion that several people are interested in, based on the level of response to the mage thread.
Yes, part of the fun playing a game is to learn about the different aspects of the game. Therefore i think it is no good, that priest/paladins and mages/rangers/rogues have identical spellbooks, which just differ in spell level and mana cost.
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Old July 19, 2011, 16:16   #8
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Each class gets a different subset of the spells in those spellbooks, too. Your rogue is never going to cast Firebolt (let alone Meteor Strike), nor a paladin Banish Evil. This is a pretty subtle difference sometimes, but it is there.
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Old July 19, 2011, 19:51   #9
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I love symmetry, and right now we don't have symmetry. I think the most promising route for new classes is something like the following.

Arcane: Full-caster = mage (as current)
Half-caster = rogue (as current)
No-spells = alchemist? (very high device skill, fights on par with rogue)

Holy: Full-caster = priest (as current)
Half-caster = paladin (as current)
No-spells = warrior (as current)

Nature: Full-caster = druid (new class)
Half-caster = ranger (needs revamping)
No-spells = archer (new class)

The no-spell classes are grouped into the respective realms for symmetry reasons and because they share characteristics. The arcane group are all good at magic devices, the holy group are melee-centric, and the nature group has a heavy emphasis on tracking and archery.

Now for distinguishing the realms. Holy spells don't really need changing. Possibly remove earthquake and destruction. Arcane loses some spells, notably: stone to mud, detect enchantment, pretty much all of Tenser's.

Then you have to come up with spells for nature class. Luckily most variants have such a nature class. The big question is whether you want to let the player summon or not. That would be a big change for V. Other advantages that you could give the druids and rangers in exchange for weaker spells is innate telepathy at some clevel.

The final goal would involve shrinking the spell books by 1 (or 2?) books for each realm. The idea being that they'll need to rely on devices for some of the missing spells, just like priests need !speed currently.

The current ranger is probably a blend of what I envision the ranger and the archer to be.
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Old July 19, 2011, 19:56   #10
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I actually rather like the symmetry in having all realms have Destruction somewhere in an endgame book. Doesn't matter how you get there, mystical powers let you blow stuff up.
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