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Old June 28, 2013, 08:35   #41
Magnate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spacebux View Post
Yet, just because something wasn't in the code does not mean it does not belong in the game.

[...]

No, I'm all for adding creativity to the game. I think its been whittled away so much over the past revisions, that its getting to a point of monotony. I'm not a master coder by any means, but if I can modify the code to reduce the mundane, I will.
Excellent - welcome aboard. Telling the devteam what they should be doing isn't how this community works, but stepping up and doing stuff yourself most certainly is.

When I said that stuff had never been in the game I didn't mean that it *should* never be, merely that (as Derakon pointed out in his reply) nobody has yet added it. I'm all for seeing new stuff added, game balance wildly disrupted, old-timers here having a good old moan and everything getting fixed and settling back down. We've done that a few times.
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Old June 28, 2013, 08:38   #42
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Originally Posted by DaviddesJ View Post
Who's "yourself" in this sentence? I didn't hear anyone say that hunger is a hassle. I said it's a nonissue. I also said that proliferating options that make no difference (since hunger is so irrelevant, whether it's on or off) seems like a bad idea to me. Every extra option you create has a significant cost. You've got to implement it in the code and carry it through the game and maintain it every time anything else changes. Adding options for stuff that would have to be coded into the game and yet makes hardly any difference to gameplay, seems wrong to me.
Just wanted to say that I completely agree with this. We want to maintain one game, not 2^N_OPTIONS games. People often think the simplest solution is just to make something contentious an option, but it's usually not. (I'm talking about gameplay; interface options are usually less hassle.)
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Old June 28, 2013, 20:55   #43
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80,000 turns later..

Ok, first me telling the devteam what to is like trying to dig into bear caves in the first few days of spring and hoping to pet the cute little sleeping bear is going to go well. It just ain't.


However, perhaps I misread the gist of what David & a few others were saying about the disgestion process finally being "fixed", such that Slow Digestion was now worth it.

To me, if you're going to go so far as have Slow Digestion take 80,000 resting turns to go from FULL to not FULL, and remove the penalty for being Gorged (in fact, remove the flag altogether), then why bother at all? Why not make it 800,000 or 50,000,000 turns to eat food? To me, (I often have to reiterate this in touchy-feely forums such as these) 1 tick per 100 game turns is already absurd enough, you might as well just take the digestion process out of the game equation altogether.

Something moans.

Yes, of course something moans. The Old Core, the Old Cadre hate it when someone new waltzes in and says, "hay is for horses!"; causes a rucus, spouting on-and-on about how to make things better; and, rather than evaluate the ideas---which is what Nick & Derekon did---Mr. David decided to combat the newbie---"who you callin' 'yourself'!?!?". Roooaarrrrr! woooah, scary!!!

Something moans.

Ok - so, I'll just be happy, happy, happy. Shut up about new ideas. And, just let the Old Cadre be happy in doing whatever they think is best. If you don't want to hear about new ideas or thoughts about the way things are - shut down this forum to new posters. Enjoy your same-ol', same-ol' world.

Something makes a soft pop.

Last edited by Spacebux; June 28, 2013 at 21:05.
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Old June 28, 2013, 21:03   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spacebux View Post
To me, if you're going to go so far as have Slow Digestion take 80,000 resting turns to go from FULL to not FULL, and remove the penalty for being Gorged (in fact, remove the flag altogether), then why bother at all? Why not make it 800,000 or 50,000,000 turns to eat food? To me, (I often have to reiterate this in touchy-feely forums such as these) 1 tick per 100 game turns is already absurd enough, you might as well just take the digestion process out of the game equation altogether.
Or you might as well not. If it doesn't matter, then this way is just as good as your way.
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Old June 28, 2013, 22:05   #45
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Please believe me when I say that DaviddesJ is not a Angband dev and in fact has no particular authority in this community. If you don't like him, don't listen to him and don't try to engage him in conversation. From observation it seems like such conversations will simply never end -- or at least, they won't end until the party that isn't DaviddesJ gives up and walks away.
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Old June 29, 2013, 01:09   #46
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Please believe me when I say that DaviddesJ is not a Angband dev and in fact has no particular authority in this community.
Huh? That seems pretty obvious. Did I claim otherwise?

It should also be fairly clear that I'm not the Secretary-General of the UN.
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Old June 29, 2013, 02:22   #47
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I've been following this this thread because I could see early on where it would end up. Just as Magnate did, I waited for the proper moment to chime in with what I knew I would be posting from the get go. No offense intended to any particular individual, just the V-process in general.

This is why I don't bother with V. There are variants that do V better V does, and the maintainers aren't nearly as sanctimonious. It's just a shadow of itself cast upon a jagged wall.
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Old June 29, 2013, 02:49   #48
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Just as Magnate did, I waited for the proper moment to chime in with what I knew I would be posting from the get go.
You read the start of this thread, and you thought to yourself, "I'll wait a week, and then I'll accuse the developers of being sanctimonious"? Really? That seems harsh. Seems to me they are doing a pretty good job.
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Old June 29, 2013, 03:03   #49
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This is why I don't bother with V. There are variants that do V better V does, and the maintainers aren't nearly as sanctimonious. It's just a shadow of itself cast upon a jagged wall.
Thing about being a variant maintainer is, you don't have all and sundry taking potshots at you every time you do (or don't do) anything. The V devs take on the role because they like the game and think they can contribute something. They don't get paid, and they get precious little thanks.

As a variant maintainer, I have it really easy. I get to pinch code from V any time I like, or choose not to; there is no pressure on me, because it's just a variant; I don't have the weight of expectation of 20 years of players coming in and complaining about the removal of their favourite feature; I could go on, but you get the picture.

But be very aware of one thing - variants rely on the existence of Vanilla. It's the gateway drug. If it had folded, or just stopped being maintained, then all the variants would have died off too, and the community would have consisted solely of embittered long-term players sniping at each other.

I'm going to release a new version of FAangband in the next couple of days. It's got some nifty FA-specific features, but it also has a huge amount of improvement to the codebase that's stolen from stuff takkaria's been doing silently to V in the background while the community's been complaining that Slow Descent is not powerful enough or too powerful or what-the-hell-ever.

See? Variant maintainers can be plenty sanctimonious. Now, straighten up and fly right, or I'll rant at you again
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Old June 29, 2013, 06:40   #50
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What I take issue with is me posing a query, making a suggestion, and getting trolled to pieces for it.

I know all the developers are unpaid actors waiting to be discovered in Hollywood---hence they sit around and piddle with the code.

Honestly, have the maintainers ever looked around at all the variants and thought - hmmm, what's good / what's bad with VariantA, ... VariantX ? I think it would be a good exercise for vanilla coders to hear what Nick and some of the other variant keepers have come up with.

All this talk of wanting to stick to the core values of historical angband is fine and dandy. But, then again, its not historical angband. We have new dungeon mobs, new dungeon vaults, new mob AI, new dungeon outlays. We've nixed some of the older items - Shards of Nasgil, wands of wall-building, and so on. We nixed the auto-roller. Many things HAVE changed that make this current version quite dissimilar to the older, historical version. If the maintainers were ang-bent on keeping to the core values, we would not be playing 3.4 or 3.5.

Indeed, Slow Digestion meant something much different in 3.0.9 and prior versions. Eating was still something that had to be done on a fairly frequent basis. You cannot tell me that permitting a player to go for 1,699,999 turns without eating is adherence to conservative angband principles. Because it isn't.

Therefore, I posed the question, for those that don't want to be bothered with the eating / digesting process, why not make a Birth Option to set food / no_food. 1 million turns between meals is nearly the same thing anyway. Telling me that we are trying to reduce the number of birth options, so it won't work that way... that's not an answer. That's a way to end the discussion without having one. "Hey, we write the code, so we're just not gonna do it." Magnate, you're a fine fellow, but that's not endearing me to discuss how I feel about the direction the Vanilla developers are taking the code.


Finally - I am not all gripe. I did mention I was quite happily impressed with the new dungeon layouts and the newer mob grouping structures. Yes, it was meant as a compliment.. and, apparently, that got looked over.

And, by the way, setting commonness to 15 on the upper mage books - that is just killer. I can't get a copy of the upper books in my current game. Set it back to 25~35, please.

Last edited by Spacebux; June 29, 2013 at 06:47.
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