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Old March 25, 2019, 15:22   #11
PowerWyrm
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Old March 25, 2019, 21:07   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takkaria View Post
Being a bit worried about stacking rechargables was why I added the 'max-stack' line in object-base.txt, which lets you choose per object type (tval in the old language) how many items can be in a pile. It's not used and I'm not sure if Nick thinks it's worthwhile, but it was a thought I had about how to maintain the UI benefits of stacking rechargeables while toning down its power a bit.
It's a great idea, but like you I haven't had the need to use it yet - in fact, I'd forgotten it existed
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Old March 26, 2019, 13:31   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
If I'm reading this correctly, PowerWyrm won, using mostly rods (and wands, to be fair).

I think this bears a lot of weight.

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It's a great idea, but like you I haven't had the need to use it yet - in fact, I'd forgotten it existed
We have discussed this at length on #mangband-dev channel and while the general consensus is "let's just do what V did", I'm very tempted to use this feature and set max-stack for rods at 8. This way, rods are still very useful, yet you can never hit the sweet spot of 10 (so you won't have a rod readily available at every turn).

What do you guys think (wrt doing this in V)?
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Old March 26, 2019, 14:23   #14
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He mostly used wands, I suspect. (He also took 1.3 million turns finding the gear he needed, so he got a lot more devices than he would find in an ordinary game.) Wands of annihilation do massive damage in the hands of a mage. And wands of TO have a lower failure rate than rods.

And you missed on component: he had a ton of banishment/mass banishment scrolls. Those are hugely powerful objects.
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Old March 26, 2019, 14:27   #15
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If I'm not somehow mistaken I believe PowerWyrm wants us to draw our attention to the stack of items (n) and (r) in his character inventory (and maybe the ten rods of healing at home, that don't even make the cut for inclusion in his inventory). Rods for dealing damage can never compete with the annihilation/recharge combo; not even close.

(Not that my two cents matters much) but I strongly advise against nerfing rods by putting a cap on stack size. If people want to try to get limitless whatever with rods, I think they should be able to for all the reasons and arguments already given in this thread.
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Old March 26, 2019, 14:49   #16
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Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
He mostly used wands, I suspect. (He also took 1.3 million turns finding the gear he needed, so he got a lot more devices than he would find in an ordinary game.) Wands of annihilation do massive damage in the hands of a mage. And wands of TO have a lower failure rate than rods.

And you missed on component: he had a ton of banishment/mass banishment scrolls. Those are hugely powerful objects.
Thanks for the clarifications, I'm not too good at reading char dumps.

Grotug, I guess this dump has something to do with the topic at hand... PowerWyrm, could you maybe clarify?
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Old March 26, 2019, 15:08   #17
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I agree with Grotug's analysis. Wands are, simply put, more powerful than rods. You don't need a gigantic stack of rods to be able to fire one bolt per round for however long the fight lasts; you just need to be able to recharge the wands afterwards. And, yes, you'll be paying a certain amount of "recharge tax" when you do that, but I would be quite surprised if replacement wands were more rare than replacement rods.

That's all not to say that MAngband might have different priorities. With a persistent surface level and the ability to trade obsolete gear between players, I could easily see a situation where every player starts out with ten Rods of Acid Bolt, gifted to them by someone else, that they lean heavily on for the first ~1500'. If you actually have situations like that going on, then it might well be worth taking action.

(Also, keep in mind that a stack of 10 only means "infinite acid bolts" so long as you're at normal speed; rods recharge in game turns, not player turns)
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Old March 26, 2019, 15:55   #18
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Hmm. A bigger problem than acid bolts is TO, whether it be wands or rods. An early stack of TO from a retiring character is a massive boost. Really, there are any number of high level utility objects that could unbalance the game this way--let alone top ego items and artifacts(?)
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Old March 26, 2019, 16:07   #19
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Yup, now you can appreciate my concerns a bit more

While this doesn't generally happen, and we have several safeguards in place to prevent this from happening (including good old moderator action, as suggested), it could happen, so I HAVE TO assume any character can get his hands on any items, in any quantity; thus kinda discarding the rarity argument.

Like I stated up-thread, that might sound like we have bigger problems, than rods, but the system works remarkably well, because most things from V have built-in penalties.

Derakon, thank you for extending Grotug's analysis, this is greatly appreciated.
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Old March 26, 2019, 16:38   #20
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Requiring black market prices is a start. The trouble is that great items are guaranteed this way, not nust a lucky find, and only available once, whether or not you have the money at the time. Even stat potions can be cached, and bought at leisure.
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