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Old August 2, 2017, 06:35   #11
Namdeht
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Okay, thanks for the additional thoughts, I'll take it on board. I guess I found it easy to believe that I was too deep for my CL because of how hard every fight I picked was proving, sounds like I need to work on my aggression issues and sneak past even more fights than I already have been
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Old August 2, 2017, 10:02   #12
Sky
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i just wrote how *I* play, in all honesty. Although sometimes i go a little faster, or fall into a trap, but them again sometimes ill just reset the recall if im too deep.

My issue is that, with the gear you get around DL20-30 you can do two things: build for everything, or build for DPS. For example, say you get this list of gear and you need to pick your equipment.

Ring of damage +8
Ring of Damage +10
Ring of resist poison
ring of see invisible
gauntlets of slaying +3
light with +3 STR
light with FA
great axe of acid +10,+10
maul of slay Evil, Hlife

on one side, you have a player with rPois, SI, FA, HLife. makes sense, but he's capping at 45 DPS.
on the other, a he's got half mana, no FA, no SI, but if he runs into a dread he can actually kill it capping at 130 dps due to slaying, damage rings, STR.

and also, it's a "holistic" build. i need to deal with the fact that i just cannot let a unique go when i find it. i'm still beating myself up for teleporting away from Ungoliant after using 4 potions of !Heal, even though i won that game.

it's not entirely correct to say that you are never safe in V. you just neeed to be VERY safe. if you are a fully kitted CL40 and you hover around DL10, even the most OOD mob cannot touch you.

it's just that the "slowly slowly" approach isn't slow enough. slow the dungeon crawl down to a crawl .. and you'll be safe. what's true is that people don't realise how slow they have to go, if they want to go the slow way.

last time i beat morgoth i went down with 16 !Life, 28 *Heal, 21 !Heal, 9 MBan, 20~ish Ban, 5 Rod of Heal, 16 Rod of TO, 5 books, *Enlight, 600 dmg vs evil, 42 speed, and every resist including stun.





i get the dive smart thing, but like you said, it requires a set of skills which slow grind doesn't .. grind just requires patience, lots and lots of patience. and a stack of WoR. and keymaps for resting at DL1. and sell_on.
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Old August 2, 2017, 15:34   #13
Ingwe Ingweron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky View Post
i just wrote how *I* play, in all honesty. Although sometimes i go a little faster, or fall into a trap, but them again sometimes ill just reset the recall if im too deep....

i get the dive smart thing, but like you said, it requires a set of skills which slow grind doesn't .. grind just requires patience, lots and lots of patience. and a stack of WoR. and keymaps for resting at DL1. and sell_on.
My response - http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?p=107826
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Old August 2, 2017, 15:37   #14
Sky
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i read and i agree, but you're missing the third option.

find a mountain, set up a company, generate interest, find investors, float in on the market, hire workers, build a railway, move suppliers to base camp, construct a base, drill a shaft, and install a massive pressurized lift to the summit of the mountain is safer than climbing it with minimal gear.

like i said, slow isn't slow enough.
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Old August 2, 2017, 15:50   #15
kandrc
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i read and i agree, but you're missing the third option.

find a mountain, set up a company, generate interest, find investors, float in on the market, hire workers, build a railway, move suppliers to base camp, construct a base, drill a shaft, and install a massive pressurized lift to the summit of the mountain is safer than climbing it with minimal gear.

like i said, slow isn't slow enough.
What's your win rate, roughly?
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Old August 2, 2017, 16:40   #16
Derakon
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Even a character with Morgoth's Iron Crown, the One Ring, the Boots of Feanor, a huge stack of Potions of Life, etc. -- every possible advantage you can give them -- is not invincible. The idea that you can render the endgame safe via sufficiently slow play is fundamentally flawed.
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Old August 2, 2017, 16:41   #17
Philip
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Or, for that matter, mean time to win. It sounds incredibly tedious.

I am incredibly confused about your "two gear sets" example. What use is it being able to kill a Dread when you can't see it? Why are you even fighting a Dread at a point where you can't instakill them?

In your analogy, you probably go bankrupt well before you put the lift in. In Angband terms, that means getting to a point where the game is so boring you hold down arrows keys because death would be a welcome relief and change of pace. Another possibility is spending a month getting a character to clvl 30 at dlvl 10, going a bit deeper, and then suddenly being killed by something. It's a lot less annoying when you spent a weekend having characters die on you, but having a clvl 30 character with better gear at the end.

For what it's worth, you're right that at dlvl 20-30, you can either have damage (though I have no clue why you'd want to represent damage with a great axe rather than a weapon with multiple blows) or you can have defense stuff (instakill prevention for example). The solution is to gear up for defense, go to dlvl 40-50, or to 80 or so, and find stuff that will give you both. Angband only requires you to kill two monsters. Killing any others is a matter of personal choice, and understanding that is crucial to the game being playable. In a sense you could say the game is built for diving, since stealth is one of the few skills that doesn't go up with clvl, just with gear.

clvl 40 at dlvl 10 sounds like one of the circles of hell to me. Why would you subject yourself to that? And even if you did have, say, SI already, because V is generous with items, you could easily be killed by an Ethereal Dragon or some kind of Ghost at clvl 25 and dlvl 10 wandering out of a vault.

EDIT: While it is true that in no variant can you ever be safe, V has a remarkably safe endgame. O has Storms of Unmagic and Wyrms of Power that will teach you that you are always at most two turns away from death. I believe V would become a better (if somewhat harder) game if Teleport Level were made available, and monsters were made scary.
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Old August 2, 2017, 17:16   #18
Sky
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What's your win rate, roughly?
less than 10%
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Old August 2, 2017, 18:00   #19
kandrc
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less than 10%
So you invest a lot of real-life time into a character doing mindless grinding, and then you get killed. Cool strategy.

I also win about 10%, maybe slightly higher, but my wins take about 8 hours, and if I survive an hour, my win rate goes up to perhaps 70%.

I think that if you start playing forced descent for a while, it'll do great things for your game. Keep clearing levels if you like. Keep selling if you like. Just turn on forced descent. Keep it on until you get a win. It'll make you a much better player.
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Old August 2, 2017, 18:02   #20
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I think we can safely say at this point that Sky has no interest in improving their win rate.
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