Dumb Sil questions - Page 2

Nick · January 7, 2023, 00:52

Context: I'm doing a hacky copy of the Sil (former NPP) code for line-of-fire, as a temporary measure to get stuff working.

Question: My understanding is that you can't shoot at every grid you can see in Sil. But can you see every grid you can shoot at?

SweetVinegar · January 7, 2023, 08:06

You can (try to) shoot at any grid (within bow range) for which there is a line unobstructed by walls that the player has seen. For example the target grid might be a wall that hasn't been seen yet but you can still shoot at the grid (I think the arrow might break but I don't actually know). So no, you can't see every grid you can shoot at.

Nick · January 7, 2023, 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by SweetVinegar

You can (try to) shoot at any grid (within bow range) for which there is a line unobstructed by walls that the player has seen. For example the target grid might be a wall that hasn't been seen yet but you can still shoot at the grid (I think the arrow might break but I don't actually know). So no, you can't see every grid you can shoot at.

Thanks, I think I have kind of a plan.

wobbly · January 8, 2023, 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick

Question: My understanding is that you can't shoot at every grid you can see in Sil. But can you see every grid you can shoot at?

The 2nd statement would be true if you had infinite light radius. The current UI is a little buggy, you can move the target to a square you can't fire at, though it'll tell you its an illegal target when you actually try to shoot.

half · January 9, 2023, 13:47

Setting aside issues of light and knowledge of the map (i.e. attempts to fire into the unknown), I believe you have LOF if there is a straight line from the centre of your square to the centre of the target's square (going through the very corner of an obstruction is fine). And that you have LOS if there is a straight line from the centre of your square to any part of their square. So LOF implies LOS, and LOF is symmetrical. I believe this is all inherited from NPP, and is an elegant way of doing it.

If I'd kept developing Sil, I'd also like to have implemented things like smoke and portcullises that block LOS but not LOF and vice versa. Chasms were kind of a first step at this (blocking movement but not LOS or LOF). I believe you (Nick) enumerated the possibilities many years back and I thought it was a great contribution to roguelike theory.

Nick · January 9, 2023, 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by half

Setting aside issues of light and knowledge of the map (i.e. attempts to fire into the unknown), I believe you have LOF if there is a straight line from the centre of your square to the centre of the target's square (going through the very corner of an obstruction is fine). And that you have LOS if there is a straight line from the centre of your square to any part of their square. So LOF implies LOS, and LOF is symmetrical. I believe this is all inherited from NPP, and is an elegant way of doing it.

OK, that's exactly what I needed to know. I've decided to start off with essentially the NPP/Sil LOF algorithm, but with the view bits removed because I'm using the (less efficient but simpler to follow) newer Angband view algorithm. Your information will be good when (or if) I get around to trying to rewrite LOF in a similar way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by half

If I'd kept developing Sil, I'd also like to have implemented things like smoke and portcullises that block LOS but not LOF and vice versa. Chasms were kind of a first step at this (blocking movement but not LOS or LOF). I believe you (Nick) enumerated the possibilities many years back and I thought it was a great contribution to roguelike theory.

Windows would be another interesting one

Nick · January 19, 2023, 20:27

Can you destroy artifacts?

Thraalbee · January 20, 2023, 11:54

To get three Silmarils out of the crown you have to sacrifice one weapon that will break when attempting to cut it out, regardless of type. Fits with the lore. Not sure but I think it is the second. Might be the third.

wobbly · January 20, 2023, 12:13

You can't 'k' them but they can be broken on the crown, lost to lack of floor space or lost to leaving the level(even if not seen)

Nick · January 20, 2023, 21:27

Thanks, that's what I thought.

January 7, 2023, 00:52	#11
Nick Vanilla maintainer Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Canberra, Australia Age: 57 Posts: 9,481 Donated: $60	Context: I'm doing a hacky copy of the Sil (former NPP) code for line-of-fire, as a temporary measure to get stuff working. Question: My understanding is that you can't shoot at every grid you can see in Sil. But can you see every grid you can shoot at? __________________ One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

January 19, 2023, 20:27	#17
Nick Vanilla maintainer Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Canberra, Australia Age: 57 Posts: 9,481 Donated: $60	Can you destroy artifacts? __________________ One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

January 20, 2023, 21:27	#20
Nick Vanilla maintainer Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Canberra, Australia Age: 57 Posts: 9,481 Donated: $60	Thanks, that's what I thought. __________________ One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

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January 7, 2023, 08:06	#12
SweetVinegar Rookie Join Date: Jan 2020 Location: Europe Posts: 3	You can (try to) shoot at any grid (within bow range) for which there is a line unobstructed by walls that the player has seen. For example the target grid might be a wall that hasn't been seen yet but you can still shoot at the grid (I think the arrow might break but I don't actually know). So no, you can't see every grid you can shoot at.

January 9, 2023, 13:47	#15
half Knight Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 910	Setting aside issues of light and knowledge of the map (i.e. attempts to fire into the unknown), I believe you have LOF if there is a straight line from the centre of your square to the centre of the target's square (going through the very corner of an obstruction is fine). And that you have LOS if there is a straight line from the centre of your square to any part of their square. So LOF implies LOS, and LOF is symmetrical. I believe this is all inherited from NPP, and is an elegant way of doing it. If I'd kept developing Sil, I'd also like to have implemented things like smoke and portcullises that block LOS but not LOF and vice versa. Chasms were kind of a first step at this (blocking movement but not LOS or LOF). I believe you (Nick) enumerated the possibilities many years back and I thought it was a great contribution to roguelike theory.

January 20, 2023, 11:54	#18
Thraalbee Knight Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Stockholm Posts: 701	To get three Silmarils out of the crown you have to sacrifice one weapon that will break when attempting to cut it out, regardless of type. Fits with the lore. Not sure but I think it is the second. Might be the third.

January 20, 2023, 12:13	#19
wobbly Prophet Join Date: May 2012 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 2,614	You can't 'k' them but they can be broken on the crown, lost to lack of floor space or lost to leaving the level(even if not seen)

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