Do we need points based stat generation at all?

[bebo]

Originally Posted by PowerDiver

The problem is, what about people who do not yet know that raising your dex from 12 to 18 has no discernible effect, but raising it from 18 to 18/10 is game-changing?

Count me among these - what's the difference?

Plus i must say I never have been able to figure exactly the impact of STR and DEX (plus weapon weight) on number of blows, it's always been a process of trial and error in my case - possibly a detailed table in a spoiler file might be enough to provide the required info

[Magnate]

Originally Posted by bebo

Count me among these - what's the difference?

Plus i must say I never have been able to figure exactly the impact of STR and DEX (plus weapon weight) on number of blows, it's always been a process of trial and error in my case - possibly a detailed table in a spoiler file might be enough to provide the required info

Or you can just look in tables.c

DEX determines which column is used in the "blows table". Columns are for DEX 10, 18/10, 18/50, 18/70, 18/90 and every /10 after that (to 18/150 max).

DEX also affects things like +hit, +AC, disarming traps and avoiding thievery - but the big difference is that many characters will get an extra blow with many weapons at 18/10 DEX. Exactly how many blows is a function of STR, class and weapon weight. It's non-trivial.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by Magnate

DEX determines which column is used in the "blows table". Columns are for DEX 10, 18/10, 18/50, 18/70, 18/90 and every /10 after that (to 18/150 max).

Can anyone tell me how the blows table was arrived at? I've had a quick go at reverse engineering it, but I think it may be more efficient to ask someone who (a) actually knows and (b) is not in my current pre-coffee fog.

[Jungle_Boy]

http://www.juti.nl/hugo/Angband/Spoiler/attack.spo

The site also has some other useful spoilers

[Nick]

Originally Posted by Jungle_Boy

http://www.juti.nl/hugo/Angband/Spoiler/attack.spo

The site also has some other useful spoilers

Thanks, but I was after how the blows table was constructed. I'm guessing it's an approximation to some function of strength/weight and dex, and I was hoping that someone else does know.

[Pete Mack]

@Nick--
The point is that DEX up to 15 is pretty average; there has to be some cut-off above 15 to get to the next column in the blows table. Whether that should be 18/10 (which is high for anybody except rogues, dunadan or high-elves) or 17, which is feasible for many classes, is a matter of degree.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by Pete Mack

@Nick--
The point is that DEX up to 15 is pretty average; there has to be some cut-off above 15 to get to the next column in the blows table. Whether that should be 18/10 (which is high for anybody except rogues, dunadan or high-elves) or 17, which is feasible for many classes, is a matter of degree.

This was indeed other people's point, but not mine. I want to know why the blows table has the entries in it that it does. There are two possibilities:

1. Someone back in the mists of time filled in the table based on how they thought it should work or
2. The table is an approximation to some function of DEX and STR/(weapon weight).

My guess is that it is the latter, but I'm wondering if anyone knows this to be the case, and if so if they know what function.

[Magnate]

Originally Posted by Nick

This was indeed other people's point, but not mine. I want to know why the blows table has the entries in it that it does. There are two possibilities:

1. Someone back in the mists of time filled in the table based on how they thought it should work or
2. The table is an approximation to some function of DEX and STR/(weapon weight).

My guess is that it is the latter, but I'm wondering if anyone knows this to be the case, and if so if they know what function.

Hmmm. My guess is the former - it's one of many completely arbitrary sequences in the stat tables. There is no evidence of the original designers using complex formulae to determine anything (and with the DEX values as they are it would have to be pretty complex), so I doubt there's a hidden formula here.

[Polyonymous]

I've been playing around with it for a while now and can discern no major pattern. I've tried best fits of various shapes and sizes. I'm going to guess that the table was generated by a function originally and hacked manually over time (did it used to cap at 5 blows for all characters? the 6 blows items in the table aren't distributed like the rest of the table).

My best fit when I use the whole table (using the low dex index numbers is debatable as they're essentially outliers for really low dex) looks like

blows = (3 * str_index + 4 * dex_index + 7)/12 (capped at 1 and 6)

I tried fitting with a cap of 5 blows. Also tried including str_index^2, dex_index^2, and str_index * dex_index factors. I tried normalizing the dex_index to the stat values to compensate for the fact that the early notches are a bit further apart. I tried modelling as energy/blow instead of blows/round. I tried all combinations of the given variations. None of them significantly improved the fit. The correlation between the equation above and the actual data points is 93.26%.

If using actual dex values (may seem nicer as then the dex_index lookup can be removed), the formula would be

blows = (10 * str_index + 5 * dex_linear {3 = 3, 18/150 = 33} - 27)/40 again capped at 1 and 6.

I'd be curious to see how the table has changed over time to see what it originally was and how it became what it is now.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by Polyonymous

My best fit when I use the whole table (using the low dex index numbers is debatable as they're essentially outliers for really low dex) looks like

blows = (3 * str_index + 4 * dex_index + 7)/12 (capped at 1 and 6)

Yeah, I was heading towards that sort of thing when I gave up.

I'd be curious to see how the table has changed over time to see what it originally was and how it became what it is now.

Yes. I'm starting to come round to Magnate's point of view that it may have just been done by hand.