Do we need points based stat generation at all?

[Pete Mack]

I like your proposal better, though I would downgrade the spellcasting stat (and possibly CON) for the half-casters, and add a point in STR and/or DEX.

(I also don't really like to start priest and mage at DEX 10, because it takes forever to get past two blows with a whip or rapier.)

Also, you probably don't have to do the full grid, just the "recommended" class rate combos.
If someone wants to roll a High-Elf Rogue, he can use the default Rogue setup.

[Marble Dice]

Originally Posted by Pete Mack

I like your proposal better, though I would downgrade the spellcasting stat (and possibly CON) for the half-casters, and add a point in STR and/or DEX.

(I also don't really like to start priest and mage at DEX 10, because it takes forever to get past two blows with a whip or rapier.)

Also, you probably don't have to do the full grid, just the "recommended" class rate combos.
If someone wants to roll a High-Elf Rogue, he can use the default Rogue setup.

Okay, a table of starting stats for each class isn't really any more complicated than equally dividing your points, so you could use something like this:

         STR  INT  WIS  DEX  CON  CHR
Warrior   17   10   10   17   17   10
Mage      17   17   10   12   16   10
Priest    17   10   17   12   16   10
Rogue     17   15   10   17   13   10
Ranger    17   14   10   17   14   10
Paladin   17   10   15   17   13   10

This way any melee class has high-as-is-cheap STR and DEX, so they'll get multiple blows if not max starting blows, and all the hybrid classes will have at least 16 spell stat (for 1.0 spells per level) as long as you don't pick a race with a spell stat penalty for that class. Every combination with one of these builds won't come out perfect, but it's a good place to start.

I still maintain I wouldn't mind populating all 66 combinations with strong starting builds for each race/class if someone has a mind to actually use it.

[ajps]

Originally Posted by Marble Dice

I still maintain I wouldn't mind populating all 66 combinations with strong starting builds for each race/class if someone has a mind to actually use it.

Well, it sort of defeats the point of the edit files if we do that, so it's probably no go for that idea, whereas a per class one we could hack into the current format easily enough.

[Magnate]

Originally Posted by Marble Dice

         STR  INT  WIS  DEX  CON  CHR
Warrior   17   10   10   17   17   10
Mage      17   17   10   12   16   10
Priest    17   10   17   12   16   10
Rogue     17   15   10   17   13   10
Ranger    17   14   10   17   14   10
Paladin   17   10   15   17   13   10

That's the best argument for removing Charisma that I've yet seen.

[PowerDiver]

Originally Posted by Marble Dice

Okay, a table of starting stats for each class isn't really any more complicated than equally dividing your points, so you could use something like this:

         STR  INT  WIS  DEX  CON  CHR
Warrior   17   10   10   17   17   10
Mage      17   17   10   12   16   10
Priest    17   10   17   12   16   10
Rogue     17   15   10   17   13   10
Ranger    17   14   10   17   14   10
Paladin   17   10   15   17   13   10

This way any melee class has high-as-is-cheap STR and DEX, so they'll get multiple blows if not max starting blows, and all the hybrid classes will have at least 16 spell stat (for 1.0 spells per level) as long as you don't pick a race with a spell stat penalty for that class. Every combination with one of these builds won't come out perfect, but it's a good place to start.

I disagree. The whole point of suggested values is for the newbie, who does not realize 18/10 dex is magical, to get a reasonable allocation. Choosing a base dex of 17 that does not equate to precisely 18/10 dex is usually a mistake, a big mistake, except for warriors.

The important values are the combo values, not the base values. If you ignore that, you might as well forget the whole exercise.

[Marble Dice]

Originally Posted by Magnate

That's the best argument for removing Charisma that I've yet seen.

Hee hee~

Originally Posted by PowerDiver

Choosing a base dex of 17 that does not equate to precisely 18/10 dex is usually a mistake, a big mistake, except for warriors.

The important values are the combo values, not the base values. If you ignore that, you might as well forget the whole exercise.

Personally I think good base stats that don't achieve the perfect break points are still better than newbies spending points in non-spell-stat INT/WIS or CHR, but you do have a point: blanket class base stats are not perfect. The only way I can see to reconcile this issue is with a race-class table. To avoid a table, you'll need a formula, which either has to be compiled in due to the per-class nature of the stat allocation (bad for extension), or powered with a scripting language (not present).

Originally Posted by ajps

[re: a full race-class table] Well, it sort of defeats the point of the edit files if we do that, so it's probably no go for that idea, whereas a per class one we could hack into the current format easily enough.

A table wouldn't necessarily defeat the edit files though - each race could have a list of suggested builds for each class. Something like...

N:0:Human
S:0:0:0:0:0:0
R:0:0:0:0:0:10:0:0
X:10:100:0
I:1:14:6
H:72:6:66:4
W:180:25:150:20
C:0|1|2|3|4|5
# B:class:str:int:wis:dex:con:chr
B:0:17:0:0:17:17:0
B:1:17:17:0:12:16:0
B:2:17:0:17:12:16:0
...

The character generator could just load the starting stats from the race data for the class you picked, if it was supplied in the p_race.txt file. Otherwise, it wouldn't distribute any points.

[PowerDiver]

Originally Posted by Marble Dice

To avoid a table, you'll need a formula, which either has to be compiled in due to the per-class nature of the stat allocation (bad for extension), or powered with a scripting language (not present).

Since the values would be presented by the code in birth.c that generates the stat buying screen, you somehow will have to make do merely with a high-level universal programming language. It extends just fine since that code is already accessing the race and class mods.

Adding an external table that would have to be parsed would be more work, not less, and would suffer further when future races were added or any stat mods were changed.

[PaulBlay]

Originally Posted by Marble Dice

To avoid a table, you'll need a formula, which either has to be compiled in due to the per-class nature of the stat allocation (bad for extension), or powered with a scripting language (not present).

It could be both compiled in and flexible. I would give the p_class.txt file some extra flags that would be used by the formula in calculating suggested values.

N:0:Warrior
F:FIGHTER | NOSPELL

N:1:Mage
F:SPELLCASTER | INT_MANA

N:2:Priest
F:SPELLCASTER | WIS_MANA

N:3:Rogue
F:MIXED | INT_MANA

N:4:Ranger
F:MIXED | INT_MANA

N:5:Paladin
F:MIXED | WIS_MANA

(Add more flags and adjust to taste ;-)

Now the clever bit is that when you have some new classes you don't need to re-do the formula, just give them appropriate flags.

N:6:War-Mage
F:MIXED | INT_MANA

N:7:High Priest
F:SPELLCASTER | WIS_MANA | INT_MANA

N:8:Gladiator
F:FIGHTER | NOSPELL

(Coming soon to a variant near you!)

[Marble Dice]

Originally Posted by PowerDiver

Since the values would be presented by the code in birth.c that generates the stat buying screen, you somehow will have to make do merely with a high-level universal programming language. It extends just fine since that code is already accessing the race and class mods.

Adding an external table that would have to be parsed would be more work, not less, and would suffer further when future races were added or any stat mods were changed.

Universal at least, the definition of "high-level" may be open to interpretation.

My point was without some footprint in the class or race data, it can't be extensible, because you can't make intelligent decisions about how to allocate stats. That footprint can be specific builds or it could be flags which affect a native C algorithm, as described above. Forgive me for debating a method.

[PowerDiver]

Originally Posted by Marble Dice

Forgive me for debating a method.

So long as we are obsessing ridiculously, the 18/10 dex shouldn't be hardcoded either. Some generalization of the code I wrote for "with +3 dex you get another blow" should be used to determine which str/dex combos get max blows with a dagger. If all of the gore of the blows stuff is indirected to a single function and if any of it changes, starting stats would adjust automatically. That would also pick up the case where you need to start with base 18 str.