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Old April 23, 2009, 05:53   #41
Pete Mack
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I don't have this problem in Angband, but it occurs to me that something like this would really help in UnAngband, where moderately optimized character initialization is overwhelmingly complex. (All those classes, specializations, races--who knows what you should do to get a reasonable starting character.)
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Old May 9, 2009, 14:47   #42
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Right, seeing as I still don't really have a clue what to do here:
If anyone has concrete suggestions for tweaking that algorithm I can easily adjust it and generate new tables for comparison. Assuming anyone still cares. Likewise, do say if you think either of the tweaks I've made give better stat distribution because I'll commit them as a "better than nothing" change in svn.


Addressing a couple of other points from the thread:

When it comes to not hardcoding the breakpoint(s), we may as well (eventually, if we need to) just put them in an edit file as breakpoints with commented explanations, because otherwise we'll be hardcoding the dagger as the item to use for comparison, and so on down the line until the "determining breakpoints" code is impossible to understand or we end up using brute force to try every combination of stats and weapons.

When it comes to the INT_MANA, MIXED flags, and so on, I currently use the spellcasting stat already defined in the edit files, and use a low max blows to indicate that a class is a pure spellcaster, rather than adding more flags. Again, we can always change it later if it matters.
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Old May 9, 2009, 20:27   #43
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My current char, a dwarf ranger choosing str over dex just to highlight this issue, http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=8845 is doing just fine. I am ready to take on Morgoth with a base dex of 18/20, and could still get my full 5 blows with the melee weapons [Calris and Aglarang] I was considering using against Sauron. I admit that I am not sure base str 18 + dex 10 was better than str 17 + dex 14, but I'm not sure it wasn't better either.

Dex just isn't that important to mages, priests, or rangers early on, and it's not that important to anyone in the late game considering how little you need and what you are likely to have by then.

As to specifics, I gave a full algorithm for spending stat points early on in this thread. It probably needs a little tweaking. In contrast, the initial stats I see at startup in 1375 are just plain crazy.

In the late game, CON > spellstat > STR > DEX. In the early game, DEX 18/10 > Spellstat > STR > DEX 18 > CON.
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Old May 9, 2009, 23:04   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
As to specifics, I gave a full algorithm for spending stat points early on in this thread. It probably needs a little tweaking. In contrast, the initial stats I see at startup in 1375 are just plain crazy.
Ah, I might not have been clear. The current algorithm is intended to be exactly the one you proposed early in this thread, and it's that I'm trying to tweak (see http://trac.rephial.org/browser/trunk/src/birth.c#L766 for the implementation). I'm assuming anyway that I've not put in a bucket of bugs, it's not that complicated an algorithm after all.
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Old May 9, 2009, 23:39   #45
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It still has two notable problems:
for full casters, the spell-casting stat is much more important.
CON is undervalued. Starting with a low base CON is OK only if you don't plan to go much past 2000'.
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Old May 10, 2009, 00:31   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajps View Post
Ah, I might not have been clear. The current algorithm is intended to be exactly the one you proposed early in this thread, and it's that I'm trying to tweak (see http://trac.rephial.org/browser/trunk/src/birth.c#L766 for the implementation). I'm assuming anyway that I've not put in a bucket of bugs, it's not that complicated an algorithm after all.
The problem, I think, is

Code:
 
813                         /* If possible buy adj DEX of 18/10 */ 
814                         case 1: 
815                         { 
816                                 if (!maxed[A_DEX] && p_ptr->state.stat_top[A_DEX] < 18+10) 
817                                 { 
818                                         if (!buy_stat(A_DEX, stats, points_spent, points_left)) 
819                                                 maxed[A_DEX] = TRUE; 
820                                 } 
821                                 else 
822                                 { 
823                                         step++; 
824                                 } 
825  
826                                 break; 
827                         }
My intention was that if you cannot achieve 18/10 here, you should not spend any points at all on dex until the last phase. Instead, you spend a lot of points even when you cannot achieve 18/10.
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Old May 10, 2009, 01:56   #47
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Just as a point of reference, in WoW you don't pick your stats at all, either at birth or throughout the game. They are assigned when you roll a character based on race/class and automatically get increased per level based on your class.

When they came out with it, it was very much against most of the other RPGs out there that demanded customization, and people complained. Until they played it and realized that there are enough ways to customize your character and taking out stat manipulation let you focus on other things, like gear itemization. You can still stack your stats with gear.
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Old May 10, 2009, 02:37   #48
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Of course WOW emphasizes gear. Gear requires you to either grind for gold or do boring, repetative quests. That's great when your customers pay by the hour. No fair making an optimized starting charachter that lets you skip the first hour or two of grinding.
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Old May 10, 2009, 04:49   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atarlost View Post
Of course WOW emphasizes gear. Gear requires you to either grind for gold or do boring, repetative quests. That's great when your customers pay by the hour. No fair making an optimized starting charachter that lets you skip the first hour or two of grinding.


I don't think the fact that WoW is a gear-focused grind fest really matters in this conversation, although it is true. Perhaps the great amount of diverse itemization in WoW offsets the ability to customize stats. I believe that *bands have good itemization but people almost always ignore stats for resists, which is sad.
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Old May 10, 2009, 05:44   #50
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That's because most elemental attacks are balanced with the assumption the player has the resist. Too many resists are must-haves and stats simply aren't.
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