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Old September 2, 2008, 18:23   #1
Wraitheist
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Some weapon questions (spoilers)

Thought I'd post my char dump to make things simpler:
Code:
  [Angband 3.0.9b Character Dump]

 Name   Canticle                                 Self  RB  CB  EB   Best
 Sex    Male              Age        45   STR! 18/100  +2  -1  +7 18/180
 Race   Dwarf             Height     48   INT! 18/100  -3  -3  +1  18/50
 Class  Priest            Weight    160   WIS! 18/100  +2  +3  +7 18/220
 Title  Prophet           Status     25   DEX! 18/100  -2  -1  +8 18/150
 HP     635/635           Maximize    Y   CON! 18/100  +2  +0  +5 18/170
 SP     327/327                           CHR! 18/100  -3  +2  +2 18/110

 Level           41       Armor    [30,+95]     Saving Throw   Legendary
 Cur Exp    2071274       Fight   (+21,+12)     Stealth        Very Good
 Max Exp    2071274       Melee   (+24,+19)     Fighting          Superb
 Adv Exp    2100000       Shoot   (+31,+14)     Shooting          Superb
 MaxDepth   4950 ft       Blows      6/turn     Disarming      Excellent
 Turns      4088268       Shots      1/turn     Magic Device      Heroic
 Gold        997087       Infra       50 ft     Perception          Fair
 Burden   216.1 lbs       Speed          25     Searching           Fair

 You are the only child of a Dwarven Prison Guard.  You are a credit to
 the family.  You have dark brown eyes, straight black hair, a two foot
 beard, and a dark complexion.


      abcdefghijkl@       abcdefghijkl@
 Acid:......+.*.... Blind:............+
 Elec:......+...... Confu:......+....+.
 Fire:.+....+...... Sound:......+.+....
 Cold:......+...... Shard:.............
 Pois:..+.......... Nexus:.......+.....
 Fear:......+.++... Nethr:...........+.
 Lite:............. Chaos:........+..+.
 Dark:..+.......... Disen:.............

      abcdefghijkl@       abcdefghijkl@
S.Dig:+............ Stea.:..+....+.....
Feath:............. Sear.:.............
PLite:............. Infra:.............
Regen:+............ Tunn.:.............
Telep:.........+... Speed:.+.+...+.....
Invis:.....+....... Blows:+............
FrAct:........+.++. Shots:.............
HLife:............. Might:.............


  [Character Equipment]

a) The Short Sword 'Dagmor' (1d7) (+3,+7) (+2)
   It increases your attack speed by 2.  It slays animals.  It is
   branded with poison.  It slows your metabolism and speeds your
   regeneration.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
b) The Light Crossbow 'Cubragol' (x3) (+10,+14) (+10)
   It increases your speed by 10.  It provides resistance to fire.  It
   activates for fire branding of bolts every 999 turns.  It cannot be
   harmed by the elements.  
c) The Ring of Barahir (+1)
   It increases all your stats by 1.  It increases your stealth by 1.  
   It provides resistance to poison and dark.  It cannot be harmed by
   the elements.  
d) a Malachite Ring of Speed (+14)
   It increases your speed by 14.  
e) an Ivory Amulet of Wisdom (+5)
   It increases your wisdom by 5.  It sustains your wisdom.  
f) The Star of Elendil
   It usually provides light of radius 3.  It grants you the ability to
   see invisible things.  It activates for magic mapping every 50+d50
   turns.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
g) The Metal Brigandine Armour of the Rohirrim [19,+15] (+2)
   It increases your strength and dexterity by 2.  It provides
   resistance to acid, lightning, fire, cold, fear, confusion, and 
   sound.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
h) The Cloak 'Colannon' [1,+15] (+3)
   It increases your stealth and speed by 3.  It provides resistance to 
   nexus.  It activates for teleport every 45 turns.  It cannot be
   harmed by the elements.  
i) The Small Metal Shield of Thorin [3,+25] (+4)
   It increases your strength and constitution by 4.  It provides
   immunity to acid.  It provides resistance to fear, sound, and chaos.
   It grants you immunity to paralysis.  It cannot be harmed by the
   elements.  
j) a Jewel Encrusted Crown of Lordliness [0,+10] (+1)
   It increases your wisdom and charisma by 1.  It provides resistance
   to fear.  It sustains your wisdom and charisma.  It grants you the
   power of telepathy.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
k) a Set of Cesti of Free Action [5,+7]
   It grants you immunity to paralysis.  
l) The Pair of Soft Leather Boots 'Dal-i-thalion' [2,+13] (+5)
   It increases your dexterity by 5.  It provides resistance to 
   confusion, nether, and chaos.  It sustains your constitution.  It
   grants you immunity to paralysis.  It activates for remove fear and
   cure poison every 5 turns.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  


  [Character Inventory]

a) 2 Holy Books of Prayers [Beginners Handbook] {@1}
b) 3 Holy Books of Prayers [Words of Wisdom] {@2}
c) 2 Holy Books of Prayers [Chants and Blessings] {@3}
d) 4 Holy Books of Prayers [Exorcism and Dispelling] {@4}
e) 4 Holy Books of Prayers [Ethereal Openings] {@5}
   It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
f) 3 Holy Books of Prayers [Godly Insights] {@6}
   It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
g) 4 Holy Books of Prayers [Purifications and Healing] {@7}
   It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
h) a Holy Book of Prayers [Holy Infusions] {@8}
   It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
i) a Purple Speckled Potion of Lose Memories
j) 12 Grey Speckled Potions of Healing
k) 8 Violet Potions of *Healing*
l) 4 Copper Speckled Potions of Restore Mana
m) 4 Scrolls titled "ius utus secum" of Banishment
n) a Scroll titled "in ineo la cus" of Mass Banishment
o) 5 Bronze Rods of Disarming
p) 4 Chromium Rods of Light
q) 2 Ivory Staffs of Speed (9 charges)
r) 7 Banyan Staffs of *Destruction* (5 charges)
s) The Scimitar 'Haradekket' (2d5) (+9,+11) (+2)
   It increases your dexterity by 2.  It increases your attack speed by
   2.  It slays animals, undead, and all evil creatures.  It grants you 
   the ability to see invisible things.  It cannot be harmed by the
   elements.  
t) 18 Seeker Bolts of Wounding (4d5) (+21,+23) {@0}


  [Home Inventory]

a) 29 Magenta Potions of Speed
b) 3 Gloopy Green Potions of Life
c) 3 Ivory Staffs of Speed (14 charges)
d) The Jewel 'Evenstar'
   It cannot be harmed by the elements.  It might have hidden powers.
e) The Full Plate Armour of Isildur [25,+25] (+1)
   It increases your constitution by 1.  It provides resistance to acid,
   lightning, fire, cold, confusion, sound, and nexus.  It cannot be
   harmed by the elements.  
f) The Leather Scale Mail 'Thalkettoth' (-1) [11,+25] (+3)
   It increases your dexterity by 3.  It increases your speed by 3.  It
   provides resistance to acid and shards.  It cannot be harmed by the
   elements.  
g) The Cloak of Thingol [1,+18] (+3)
   It increases your dexterity and charisma by 3.  It provides
   resistance to acid, fire, and cold.  It grants you immunity to
   paralysis.  It activates for recharge item I every 70 turns.  It
   cannot be harmed by the elements.  
h) a Golden Crown of Might [0,+18] (+3)
   It increases your strength, dexterity, and constitution by 3.  It
   sustains your strength, dexterity, and constitution.  It grants you 
   immunity to paralysis.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
i) a Jewel Encrusted Crown of Night and Day [0,+17]
   It provides resistance to light, dark, and blindness.  It usually
   provides light of radius 1.  It grants you the ability to see
   invisible things.  It cannot be harmed by acid.  
j) The Metal Cap of Thengel [3,+12] (+3)
   It increases your wisdom and charisma by 3.  It provides resistance
   to confusion.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
k) The Iron Helm 'Holhenneth' [5,+10] (+2)
   It increases your intelligence and wisdom by 2.  It increases your 
   searching by 2.  It provides resistance to blindness and confusion.  
   It grants you the ability to see invisible things.  It activates for 
   detection every 55+d55 turns.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
   
l) The Small Sword 'Sting' (1d6) (+7,+8) (+2)
   It increases your strength, dexterity, and constitution by 2.  It
   increases your speed and attack speed by 2.  It cannot be harmed by
   the elements.  It might have hidden powers.
m) The Broad Sword 'Orcrist' (2d5) (+10,+15) (+3)
   It increases your searching by 3.  It cannot be harmed by the
   elements.  It might have hidden powers.
n) a Long Sword of Gondolin (2d5) (+16,+20)
   It slays orcs, trolls, dragons, and demons.  It provides resistance
   to dark.  It usually provides light of radius 1.  It grants you 
   immunity to paralysis and the ability to see invisible things.  It
   cannot be harmed by acid or fire.  It might have hidden powers.
o) The Two-Handed Sword 'Mormegil' (3d6) (-15,-15) [-10] (-10) {cursed}
   It decreases your speed by 10.  It is cursed.  It cannot be harmed
   by the elements.  It might have hidden powers.
p) The Executioner's Sword 'Crisdurian' (4d5) (+18,+19)
   It cannot be harmed by the elements.  It might have hidden powers.
q) The Pike 'Til-i-arc' (2d5) (+10,+12) [+10] (+2)
   It increases your intelligence by 2.  It slays trolls, giants, and 
   demons.  It is branded with fire and frost.  It provides resistance
   to fire and cold.  It sustains your intelligence.  It slows your
   metabolism.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
r) a Pike of Westernesse (2d5) (+22,+17) (+1)
   It increases your strength, dexterity, and constitution by 1.  It
   slays orcs, trolls, and giants.  It grants you immunity to paralysis 
   and the ability to see invisible things.  
s) The Beaked Axe of Theoden (2d6) (+8,+10) (+3)
   It increases your wisdom and constitution by 3.  It slays dragons.  
   It slows your metabolism.  It grants you the power of telepathy.  It
   activates for drain life (120) every 40 turns.  It cannot be harmed
   by the elements.  
t) The Glaive of Pain (9d6) (+0,+30)
   It provides resistance to fear.  It cannot be harmed by the
   elements.  
u) The Halberd 'Osondir' (3d5) (+6,+9) (+3)
   It increases your charisma by 3.  It slays giants and undead.  It is
   branded with fire.  It provides resistance to fire and sound.  It 
   makes you fall like a feather.  It grants you the ability to see
   invisible things.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
v) The Lochaber Axe 'Mundwine' (3d8) (+12,+17)
   It slays animals, demons, and all evil creatures.  It provides
   resistance to acid, lightning, fire, and cold.  It cannot be harmed
   by the elements.  
w) a Two-Handed Flail of Gondolin (3d6) (+13,+10)
   It slays orcs, trolls, dragons, and demons.  It provides resistance
   to dark.  It usually provides light of radius 1.  It slows your
   metabolism.  It grants you immunity to paralysis and the ability to
   see invisible things.  It cannot be harmed by acid or fire.  


  [Options]

Adult: Maximize effect of race/class bonuses : yes (adult_maximize)
Adult: Randomize some of the artifacts (beta): no  (adult_randarts)
Adult: Auto-scum for good levels             : no  (adult_autoscum)
Adult: Restrict the use of stairs/recall     : no  (adult_ironman)
Adult: Restrict the use of stores/home       : no  (adult_no_stores)
Adult: Restrict creation of artifacts        : no  (adult_no_artifacts)
Adult: Don't stack objects on the floor      : no  (adult_no_stacking)
Adult: Preserve artifacts when leaving level : no  (adult_no_preserve)
Adult: Don't generate connected stairs       : no  (adult_no_stairs)
Adult: Monsters chase current location       : yes (adult_ai_sound)
Adult: Monsters chase recent locations       : yes (adult_ai_smell)
Adult: Monsters act smarter in groups        : yes (adult_ai_packs)
Adult: Monsters learn from their mistakes    : no  (adult_ai_learn)
Adult: Monsters exploit players weaknesses   : no  (adult_ai_cheat)
Adult: Monsters behave more intelligently (broken): no  (adult_ai_smart)
Score: Peek into object creation             : no  (score_peek)
Score: Peek into monster creation            : no  (score_hear)
Score: Peek into dungeon creation            : no  (score_room)
Score: Peek into something else              : no  (score_xtra)
Score: Know complete monster info            : no  (score_know)
Score: Allow player to avoid death           : no  (score_live)
Just a few questions:

1) I found Morgemil (cursed). Can this be uncursed or useful in any way?

2) I found Orcrist. The description says that it is blessed by the gods...what does that mean?

3) Sting says it increased your speed by 2 and attack speed by 2. What is the difference? I understand that it gives +2 total speed...does it also give 2 extra blows per turn?

4) I want to make sure that I understand the weapon damage formula. I think it is something like this

(((base damage roll) * weapon multiplier) + added damage) * number of blows. (assuming a normal hit).

Is that correct? So if I am wielding Orcrist and I get 4 blows/round and I am fighting something not immune to frost (and not a dragon), it would be like this: (((2d5) * 3) + 15) * 4) assuming a normal hit with 4 blows/round?

5) From strictly a melee damage point of view, which weapon would you recommend I wield? My current weapon is only equipped because I was seeing how it affected my stats...i'm not actually using it.


Sorry for the long post, but I'd appreciate any advice you can offer. Thanks!

Last edited by Wraitheist; September 2, 2008 at 18:33.
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Old September 2, 2008, 18:49   #2
aeneas
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1) Mormegil is not useful. There are other cursed items that can be (including at least one quite powerful weapon.)

2) It means that a priest can wield it without penalties, even though it is pointy.

3) Yep.

4) Yes, though that's assuming that all the blows hit (so high +to_hit is a factor, though a much smaller one than +to_dam). There are also criticals to consider. Heavier weapons get more criticals, and this can be a factor, though it's not generally a huge one.

5) This depends a bit- for instance if you are wearing a big ring of damage the weapons with extra blows get a lot better. And it depends a lot on what you're fighting- the Glaive of Pain, for instance, is great against angels since they resist everything. There is (or used to be) an online damage calculator somewhere you can probably google up that will break it down for you based on what slays/brands take effect, including the effects of criticals, etc. Some of those weapons are obviously not in contention- Osondir, for instance, is not going to do much damage. Is there a full current dump of your character anywhere?

Also, I think the non-priestly penalty is likely to matter to you. Check your failure rates with and without a non-priestly weapon.

EDIT: doh, you posted a dump. Sorry, I'm a bit slow today- I'll have a look at it. Or I guess you added that after I posted, and removed the line about the weapon penalties? I hope so cause I was really wondering whether or not I should just get some sleep for a minute there.

OK, so if we ignore the issue of failure rates and ignore criticals (and if we assume I've done the math right, which is a slightly dodgy assumption as I'm pretty tired and had to recalculate a few of these when I realized that, for instance, it was very unlikely that Mundwine would do 396 vs Demons. And in fact I forgot to add in your strength bonus at first, and added it in at the end. Thought those numbers looked a bit low.)

Glaive does average of 294 damage.

Haradekket does: 174, 210 against evil, 246 against undead

Orcrist: 132, 156 vs evil, 180 vs orc/frost, 228 vs dragon

Crisdurian: 172, 220 vs evil, 268 vs orc/troll/giant/dragon

Mundwine: 170, 224 vs evil, 278 vs demons

Anyway, you get the picture. Glaive of Pain is, based purely on damage, the best by quite a bit. It will also do pretty well on criticals. But, if you had enough +to_dam the +2 blows weapons would get pretty competitive, particularly Haradekket's nice damage against undead.

But, 0% fail is really hugely important. It's the best thing about playing a pure spellcaster, so I'd be loathe to give it up just to do more damage. Priests have less need to do big damage than any other class as they can stay in combat a long time if they have enough mana to heal a lot.

Last edited by aeneas; September 2, 2008 at 20:21.
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Old September 2, 2008, 19:10   #3
awldune
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As aeneas mentioned, the "uncomfortable with your weapon" penalty affects your spell failure rates, particularly for higher-level spells. You want to be sure Teleport Other and Healing (at minimum) have 0% fail.

Orcrist might be your best bet at the moment, but almost any Holy Avenger weapon would be better. Blunt weapon of Gondolin or of Extra attacks would be great if they have high +Dam.

(edit: Actually, I think that Gondolin flail is the way to go if you get your max blows with it.)
(edit 2: No, Orcrist after all.)

Would be nice to get RPoison somewhere other than Barahir. Hopefully you'll find Evenstar soon.

Last edited by awldune; September 2, 2008 at 19:24.
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Old September 3, 2008, 01:28   #4
Wraitheist
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Aeneas, man, thanks a million! I wasn't expecting such a detail response to every one of my questions. You too, Awldune. And I did edit my post, sorry for the confusion.

I did check my failure rates when using edged weapons and...ouch. Holy word went from like 50+% failure rate down to like 19%. To and my other important spells are still at 0%, but I'm still not ok with the penalty. I'll either go with Orcrist or the Gondolin weapon. I can't believe I've found so many artifact weapons and almost all of them are nigh unusable for me, hehe.

Two more question (for now, heh):

1) Holy Word: how much damage does this do to evil creatures? It is expensive, has a high fail rate compared to Dispel Evil, and when I used it against a pack of trolls, it didn't seem to do that much damage. Is it more of a heal spell, I guess?

2) How many spell books are there? I thought there were only 8 (4 dungeon, 4 purchaseable) but I was looking at an admittedly outdated faq that mentioned 5 dungeon books. Am I missing one or was that from an earlier version of the game? *edit* Well, I'll be...I am missing one! Why did I think there was only 8? Here I've been ignoring green ? on the floor, thinking I had them all. *smacks forehead*

Thanks!
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Old September 3, 2008, 02:25   #5
awldune
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraitheist View Post
1) Holy Word: how much damage does this do to evil creatures? It is expensive, has a high fail rate compared to Dispel Evil, and when I used it against a pack of trolls, it didn't seem to do that much damage. Is it more of a heal spell, I guess?
3.0.6 source says:

case PRAYER_HOLY_WORD:
{
(void)dispel_evil(randint(plev * 4));
(void)hp_player(1000);
(void)set_afraid(0);
(void)set_poisoned(0);
(void)set_stun(0);
(void)set_cut(0);
break;
}

I think it is basically the same as the more powerful versions of Healing and Dispel Evil in the dungeon books, at the same time.

IMO it's not too great for the money.
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Old September 3, 2008, 04:03   #6
aeneas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraitheist View Post
Aeneas, man, thanks a million! I wasn't expecting such a detail response to every one of my questions. You too, Awldune. And I did edit my post, sorry for the confusion.
No problem- I figured I'd work a set for you. You can do the same now that you know the formula- just remember to get all the pluses in . The damage calculator I mentioned seems to be gone, but I think there's also a spreadsheet floating around that does the same thing. I don't bother with such exact calculations, but it's worth fooling around with something like that for a while, just to build some intuition as to how things like criticals and pluses to hit change things against different ACs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraitheist View Post
I did check my failure rates when using edged weapons and...ouch. Holy word went from like 50+% failure rate down to like 19%. To and my other important spells are still at 0%, but I'm still not ok with the penalty. I'll either go with Orcrist or the Gondolin weapon. I can't believe I've found so many artifact weapons and almost all of them are nigh unusable for me, hehe.
Hmm, those numbers seem a bit off to me- I would have thought that Holy Word would go from 19% to 44%, but I may be remembering something from an older version. Anyway, if all your other important spells are at 0% even with the penalty, I would definitely consider using the Glaive, but... that is also a bit surprising, though it's been long enough since I've played a Priest that my intuition may be really off. Anyway, if it's any consolation most of the uber-weapons are blessed. Even Ringil, though it used not to be.

As for your other questions: I'd concur with awldune. Holy Word is not a great deal. And yes, there is another dungeon book, Wrath of God. It's the rarest book in the game though, as it's native to 5000', IIRC. It's perfectly possible to win the game as a Priest without it (and if you are playing quickly you're unlikely to find it, though I've found it before 1500' quite a few times- never with a Priest, of course), but it is quite handy to have. You're deep enough that it will turn up sooner or later.

Actually, you're looking pretty good. Cubragol and Thorin are quite nice. Awldune is right that it would be really nice to be able to toss Barahir. The last 3 points of Con do the most, so you should try to get them ASAP. Be careful for the moment. 635 HP can evaporate really quickly, and this char should win. I'd be looking for some Bile Demons and Great Swamp Wyrms about now, if I were you. At that depth they can drop some nice stuff. It would only take a couple of things to really fix you up.
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Old September 3, 2008, 04:10   #7
Wraitheist
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Thanks! This is, by far, my best character ever. Before this, my best character only made it to '3600. And before that, none ever went beyond stat gain.

As for monsters to hunt, I've been going after Ice Wyrms and Hell Wryms since they drop nice stuff and I can double-resist on them. What kind of attacks do Swamp Wyrms have? And do Bile Demons summon? I've noticed that most demons tend to summon, which is a major pain for me. Any other monsters I should make a point to kill when i see them?
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Old September 3, 2008, 04:45   #8
aeneas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraitheist View Post
Thanks! This is, by far, my best character ever. Before this, my best character only made it to '3600. And before that, none ever went beyond stat gain.
Well, be very careful then. I lost my first character that should have won to overconfidence and a lack of experience. Twas pretty frustrating, but I think it's a not uncommon experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraitheist View Post
As for monsters to hunt, I've been going after Ice Wyrms and Hell Wryms since they drop nice stuff and I can double-resist on them. What kind of attacks do Swamp Wyrms have? And do Bile Demons summon? I've noticed that most demons tend to summon, which is a major pain for me. Any other monsters I should make a point to kill when i see them?
Yep, really any Wyrm that doesn't pose much threat should be high on your agenda. Swamp Wyrms breathe acid- you are immune to acid. Therefore they pose almost no threat to you. A black dragon pit would be a nice find for you at this point. Bile Demons have Acid and Poison as their main attacks, so again, having Thorin makes them less dangerous. There's a more general point here- you don't have to be all-around strong as long as you are strong against something that's worth killing and you can survive at the depth where that something is found.

But Bile Demons do summon, so you should definitely be ready to bail if things look like they are going to go south. And actually, you might not be able to kill them fast enough to prevent them from summoning so frequently that they're not worth dealing with. Definitely try to fight them in cramped quarters where they don't have a lot of spaces to summon in. You lack rShards, and there are some Demons with pretty big shard attacks, so you want to be quite careful about that.

Basically, you want to concentrate on killing stuff with the DROP_GOOD flag that isn't dangerous to you. If you pop open the monster file and search for DROP_GOOD you'll see what has that flag (Bile Demons and Wyrms have it.)`

EDIT: Ack, don't know what I'm thinking... I mean Bile Wyrms, not Swamp Wyrms. Swamp Wyrms breathe poison. Sorry about that.

Last edited by aeneas; September 3, 2008 at 04:53.
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Old September 3, 2008, 04:53   #9
Wraitheist
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Sage advice. Thanks! I'm trying to remember to be careful. I've come very close to dying several times and most of the time I could have been more careful.
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Old September 3, 2008, 05:05   #10
aeneas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraitheist View Post
Sage advice. Thanks! I'm trying to remember to be careful. I've come very close to dying several times and most of the time I could have been more careful.
Yep- well, the main thing for you at this point is to remember that you're still pretty vulnerable because your HP aren't huge yet. If you approach every situation with the thought that it could kill you firmly in mind you will likely live. The danger is that you can get the feeling that you are not in much danger because your speed and decent luck have gotten you through similar situations before. I lost one of my first decent characters because he did a lot of damage, so he was able to take out AMHDs successfully a couple of times. Then one got a double move and decided to breathe poison, which I didn't resist, both times... anyway, since you probably don't have a good idea of what is really dangerous yet you should err on the side of paranoia.

Also, as a Priest, you should be lighting up every level. That's a really underrated Priest ability. And please note the Edit I made to my post above. Swamp Wyrms should pretty much be pushovers for you anyway, but I'd hate to hear that you'd died to a Green Dragon pit because I can't keep my Wyrms straight.

Last edited by aeneas; September 3, 2008 at 05:14.
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