Archer AI vs longbow

wobbly · April 4, 2014, 02:15

Noticed today that easterling archers wont close the distance against a longbow. They tend to sit there and just take it, which seems a little silly.

BlueFish · April 4, 2014, 03:53

Close the distance and then what? Engage in melee? I'd love that as a melee guy who carries a long bow, but it sure wouldn't be in their best tactical interest. I'm not sure what's wrong with archers just continuing to shoot.

wobbly · April 4, 2014, 04:05

Just to clarify, the archers are in range of my bow whilst I'm out of range of their bows.

For some reason they continue moving away from me then stop still in range of my bow. So closing the distance to their bow range or moving out of range of mine would make more sense.

I get the feeling most of the AI is built round short bow range. I've seen fleeing monsters stop within longbow range too.

BlueFish · April 4, 2014, 05:16

I've never noticed this, but then I've never played an archer.

A similar exploitable thing with archery is with "nearsighted" monsters, which as far as I know only includes deathblades. Never heard of it with easterling archers.

Matoro · April 4, 2014, 07:29

Were they fleeing? I've sometimes had few archers "stuck" in place, since they started fleeing after few of their friends died, but they don't have an escape - they won't shoot, but they can't escape, so they end up grinding themselves into corner furthest away from me.

wobbly · April 4, 2014, 08:27

Nope. Not fleeing, not cornered either. They were standing in the centre of a well lit room. I was in the next room joined by a corridor. I'll take a screenshot next time I see it.

fph · April 4, 2014, 08:44

Clearly you are not up-to-date with the latest Hollywood longbow fighting techniques. From the thread on the Hobbit movie:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estie

Elves fighting taught me a few things I wasnt aware of previously:

The bow is a melee weapon, to be drawn into the orc´s face. If the orc manages to put some distance between himself and the elf, the elf has to close the distance, either running or by horse, and when in melee range again, draw the bow.

taptap · April 4, 2014, 12:28

At least fleeing doesn't work with logic such as "sufficient distance" or whatever, but there is a calculated morale each turn. It is not simulating, but behaviour emerges out of a few interacting rules. Temporary effects wear down per turn, instant effects change according to situation. As much as turning around a corner and losing sight of fleeing mates can bring back an enemy from flight - and stopping to flee gives an instant morale boost, so if Gorthaur comes back from flight, he probably will now stay in the fight. This probably leads to odd situations, but hard coding special cases into it, will probably even be easier to exploit.

Still, the archer AI probably needs tweaking. Best would be if they would deny you the opportunity to engage them one by one but await you in a situation where they can all engage you at once when you enter the room, but leaving you without target if you retreat into a corridor. (If they would do so, having a shot at the higher end of longbow range would be pretty rare once they noticed you.)

P.S. Don't the easterlings have a longbow as well?

wobbly · April 4, 2014, 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by taptap

At least fleeing doesn't work with logic such as "sufficient distance" or whatever, but there is a calculated morale each turn.

You certain on this one? I'll double check next time I see a fleeing monster in a long corridor, but I'm pretty sure if there past a certain distance they'll flee towards you if you move away from them. They certainly do when out of site. Will get back to you on this one.

Edit: An example
http://angband.oook.cz/screen-show.php?id=2505

Quote:

Originally Posted by taptap

P.S. Don't the easterlings have a longbow as well?

Possibly. I had str 3 which is range 20. Oddly enough just took a glance at the monster memory for easterling archers: He may fire a longbow (+8, 1d7) - so it says longbow but looks more like a str 0 shortbow. There range is certainly a closer match to a shortbow.

Edit: Did a forum search. The monster memory is a bug. They are 2d7??. I suspect there range is still closer to a shortbow though.

April 4, 2014, 02:15	#1
wobbly Veteran Join Date: May 2012 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 2,433	Archer AI vs longbow Noticed today that easterling archers wont close the distance against a longbow. They tend to sit there and just take it, which seems a little silly.

April 4, 2014, 12:28	#8
taptap Knight Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 710	At least fleeing doesn't work with logic such as "sufficient distance" or whatever, but there is a calculated morale each turn. It is not simulating, but behaviour emerges out of a few interacting rules. Temporary effects wear down per turn, instant effects change according to situation. As much as turning around a corner and losing sight of fleeing mates can bring back an enemy from flight - and stopping to flee gives an instant morale boost, so if Gorthaur comes back from flight, he probably will now stay in the fight. This probably leads to odd situations, but hard coding special cases into it, will probably even be easier to exploit. Still, the archer AI probably needs tweaking. Best would be if they would deny you the opportunity to engage them one by one but await you in a situation where they can all engage you at once when you enter the room, but leaving you without target if you retreat into a corridor. (If they would do so, having a shot at the higher end of longbow range would be pretty rare once they noticed you.) P.S. Don't the easterlings have a longbow as well? Last edited by taptap; April 4, 2014 at 12:36.

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April 4, 2014, 03:53	#2
BlueFish Swordsman Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 414	Close the distance and then what? Engage in melee? I'd love that as a melee guy who carries a long bow, but it sure wouldn't be in their best tactical interest. I'm not sure what's wrong with archers just continuing to shoot.

April 4, 2014, 04:05	#3
wobbly Veteran Join Date: May 2012 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 2,433	Just to clarify, the archers are in range of my bow whilst I'm out of range of their bows. For some reason they continue moving away from me then stop still in range of my bow. So closing the distance to their bow range or moving out of range of mine would make more sense. I get the feeling most of the AI is built round short bow range. I've seen fleeing monsters stop within longbow range too.

April 4, 2014, 05:16	#4
BlueFish Swordsman Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 414	I've never noticed this, but then I've never played an archer. A similar exploitable thing with archery is with "nearsighted" monsters, which as far as I know only includes deathblades. Never heard of it with easterling archers.

April 4, 2014, 07:29	#5
Matoro Rookie Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Finland Posts: 8	Were they fleeing? I've sometimes had few archers "stuck" in place, since they started fleeing after few of their friends died, but they don't have an escape - they won't shoot, but they can't escape, so they end up grinding themselves into corner furthest away from me.

April 4, 2014, 08:27	#6
wobbly Veteran Join Date: May 2012 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 2,433	Nope. Not fleeing, not cornered either. They were standing in the centre of a well lit room. I was in the next room joined by a corridor. I'll take a screenshot next time I see it.

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