[Announce] Poschengband 7.0.2 released

[Derakon]

Huh, I could've sworn that Kangband and Zangband were contemporary variants and cross-pollinated each other. But this is something like twenty years ago so my memory may well be fuzzy.

But yes, well said.

[Gwarl]

Originally Posted by Derakon

Huh, I could've sworn that Kangband and Zangband were contemporary variants and cross-pollinated each other. But this is something like twenty years ago so my memory may well be fuzzy.

But yes, well said.

They were. I was simplifying for rhetorical value.

[murphy]

Sorry if I was unclear. I didnt mean to say the code has only one author, but rather, that this code was released under a unique name, rather than using the same name as its predecessors. My impression is that chris wants to retain creative control of releases under the name poschengband, which seems like a reasonable thing to request

[debo]

Originally Posted by murphy

2. Its the nature of open source software that it is easily modified. The developer wants to protect the integrity of the game he created by asking players who mod the game to be transparent about it and call their edited games by a different name. To me that seems like a totally reasonable thing to ask. poschengband has name recognition and a reputation in the band community. Calling a modded game by the name poschengband is kind of a selfish way to reap the rewards of name recognition that was built on someone else's work.

I'm certain that "mods" would be named more often if it were easier for oookers to set up their own variant ladders. (This isn't a slight to pav, he's already done a ton of work to set up what we have now.)

Chris also took exception to "variants" that simply undid or ignored some of his changes, though, so there would be conflict even if these "modded versions" were to be labelled.

Originally Posted by murphy

3. If someone hacked the game to the point they had hidden healing staves in their inventory, that really goes beyond modding the game, thats clear cheating. And if they get publicly shamed for it, it seems deserved to me

clouded did not do this.

Originally Posted by murphy

4. If there's one thing I have found a little frustrating about poschengband its the lack of a communication channel with the developer. I occasionally find a bug and have no idea how to go about reporting it. Sometimes I post it here in the forum, sometimes I put it on git, but I've never gotten any acknowledgement either way that the issue has been addressed or even seen

5. Maybe the communication problem even factors into the players interest in modding the game. Players find bugs and come up with feature ideas, and if there's no feedback channel to voice these issues then its kind of a logical step to start tinkering with things yourself

6. But then again, when most of the feedback you get is people finding flaws, I'm sure that gets frustrating. If the developer stays out of the public just so he doesnt spend all his time interacting with critics, that seems totally understandable.

If I were chris, I would go mad with all of the bug reports / requested changes that are made just on these forums alone.

Poschengband gained a lot of momentum in its early days in part because of how responsive chris was to including bugfixes or new content made by players. Even now, despite his disconnectedness, poschengband gets more changes more frequently than even Vanilla does, which is pretty incredible.

[Atopian]

When it comes to virtues, your options are either learning a bunch of deeply non-intuitive relationships (even by the standards of roguelikes) then significantly modifying your playstyle accordingly...
...or deactivating virtues.

Obviously by my presentation of the issue I favour the latter.

[Gwarl]

Originally Posted by Atopian

When it comes to virtues, your options are either learning a bunch of deeply non-intuitive relationships (even by the standards of roguelikes) then significantly modifying your playstyle accordingly...
...or deactivating virtues.

Obviously by my presentation of the issue I favour the latter.

You're significantly overestimating the impact of virtues. If you're playing a crusade paladin you don't want to be evil and if you're playing a death priest you don't want to be good. Outside of the magic realms you'd expect, virtues don't really do much at all and can be safely ignored.

[CyclopsSlayer]

Originally Posted by Mocht

My understanding is that if you want to deactivate virtues then you either have to modify the source code or play an older version

As of 7.0.0 the option to deactivate virtues is gone along with Easy_ID, Easy_Info.

The problem with the virtue system from a non-programmer POV is it enforces a single playstyle. If you use stealth to get the first blow, you are Evil. Ranged shot across a room? Evil again.
The costs and benefits of the Virtues are completely hidden. I have heard second hand that to get the best Fail rates a Life user needs to be good, a Death user Evil, a Nature user needs to be Neutral. What about a Craft user, Trump? Etc...

Failing to cast a spell, eating food, trying an un-ID'd item, drinking a speed potion, are all Punished. The benefits are only apparent late game and even then there is nothing that I can point to and say, "See! My Fail rate is 3% not 4% because I did this! Or didn't do that!"

Virtues are just a way to ego-stroke those that are clued into a secret system.

[Conker]

On the topic of cheating that's been alluded to a couple of times; does it actually matter? I mean, it's a single-player game, and there aren't any competitions comparable to, say, the DCSS tournaments. We only have our own enjoyment to ruin. Or is everyone else taking the ladder really seriously, and I'm the only one who doesn't particularly give two shits about it beyond as a neat tool to see what gear other people tend to use?

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate difficulty in roguelikes. The idea of making it easier for myself is quite unpleasant to me on a personal level - fuck, I've genuinely suicided characters on Angband after finding a Staff of the Magi on D:1, or similar 'too much luck' scenarios. Which is probably a little crazy, but who cares. I can certainly empathise with the desire to challenge yourself and choosing to avoid perceived 'easy outs' like Easy ID, etc.

And I get the aggravation caused by something being turned into what it's not. If one individual guy is savescumming in his game, it doesn't do me any harm, but what if more and more people started doing it - what if it became the norm? And then influenced the whole conversation around the game, its future development, and that of other games? It'd be pretty damn annoying. I get the impression that's what Chris feels when he sees alternate versions of Poschengband going around.

But the thing is - and I'm going to be blunt here, apologies if I cause any offence - Poschengband (much like Vanilla Angband, at least the last time I played, and much like the vast majority of games) isn't a finely-balanced game. That's a matter of opinion, certainly, but having beaten both it (without any modifications or cheats, and without Easy ID or Easy Lore enabled for that matter) and pretty much every other major roguelike out there I'd say I have the breadth of experience to offer an informed opinion at least.

It's fun. There's lots to it; so much to do, so much variety, so many different ways to develop a character. Loads of really cool ideas. But balance is not its finest point by any means. The line between what is a strong tactic and what is an exploit seems entirely arbitrary. RNG has far too great a sway on combat in the lategame, particularly when variable speed/randomised energy and spells like Mana Storm come into play. Some spells are far too powerful in the player's hands. And half the things that are being passed off as 'difficulty' are closer to busywork than actual challenge.

I'd suggest that perhaps ultimately it doesn't really matter if some people are making Poschengband easier, or not playing it entirely the way the developer intended, because that 'balance' really isn't its greatest strength. Removing options people enjoyed in the sake of that balance will seem a harsh price to pay for those who didn't rate that balance very highly in the first place. For me, Poschengband's strength is that it manages to remain fun for the dozens of hours it may take a character to go from being an incompetent scrub doing the Mayor's quest up until they're ready to take on the Serpent.

I certainly agree that variants should be clearly marked, but at the end of the day I don't think removing options and contributions people seemed to enjoy is worth whatever we're supposed to be gaining.

Perhaps it will become worth it, if the developer's ultimate aim for the game is as a test of balance and skill more than anything else. If that's the case though, I'm afraid I'd have to say Chris still has a way to go before Poschengband's even close to that point, and he shouldn't be surprised if players turn to alternatives (even alternatives based largely on his own work, given the rich tradition of variants Angband has) that prioritise things they are more interested in than his idiosyncratic sense of balance.

[Atopian]

Apologies for the bad info on deactivating virtues - I have been slowly finishing off some old characters before upgrading. Although under the circumstances, I might not hurry to finish.

[Gwarl]

Originally Posted by Mocht

I've found a bug
If ctrl-g auto-collect is used whilst standing on an item then that item will be picked up

That's not a bug

    /* Get any objects under foot first ... this is the old
     * 'g' behavior sans interaction with features (e.g. re-
     * enter a shop) */
    if (cave[py][px].o_idx || p_ptr->wizard)
    {
        if (pack_get_floor())
            energy_use = 100;
        else /* Pack is full or the user canceled the easy_floor menu */
            return;
    }
    /* Now, auto pickup nearby objects by iterating
     * the travel command */