Advice re: aggravating randarts

[CunningGabe]

I recently started a new game with randarts on. After a while I found a randart axe that aggravates, and decided to keep it for a swap. Just now, I found a scroll of acquirement, so I quickly dived 5 more levels and read it, yielding a randart cloak that ALSO aggravates. Should I wear both or neither?

  [Angband 3.1.1 dev Character Dump]

 Name   Estolon VI                               Self  RB  CB  EB   Best
 Sex    Male         Age            107   STR:     16  +1  +2  +6  18/70
 Race   High-Elf     Height          65   INT:     10  +3  +2  +4  18/10
 Class  Ranger       Weight         197   WIS:     10  -1  +0  +0      9
 Title  Tracker      Social   Respected   Dex:     17  +3  +1  +2  18/50  18/40
 HP     241/241      Maximize         Y   CON:  18/10  +1  +1  +2  18/50
 SP     13/37                             CHR:     13  +5  +1  +0  18/10


 Level               25   Armor    [18,+33]     Saving Throw         74%
 Cur Exp          32476   Fight     (+4,+4)     Stealth        Excellent
 Max Exp          33653   Melee   (+10,+13)     Fighting          Superb
 Adv Exp          40250   Shoot    (+9,+11)     Shooting          Heroic
 MaxDepth   1400' (L28)   Blows      2/turn     Disarming            57%
 Turns           271476   Shots      2/turn     Magic Device      Superb
 Gold             59754   Infra       40 ft     Perception       1 in 20
 Burden       142.3 lbs   Speed      Normal     Searching            27%

 You are one of several children of a Telerin Warrior.  You have light
 green eyes, straight black hair, and a fair complexion.



 Acid:........+.... Confu:.............
 Elec:....+........ Sound:.............
 Fire:......+...... Shard:.............
 Cold:............. Nexus:.............
 Pois:............. Nethr:.............
 Fear:............. Chaos:.............
 Lite:............+ Disen:.............
 Dark:............. S.Dig:.............
Blind:............. Feath:.............

PLite:............. Aggrv:.............
Regen:............. Stea.:.............
Telep:............. Sear.:.............
Invis:+........+..+ Infra:............+
FrAct:+............ Tunn.:.............
HLife:............. Speed:.............
ImpHP:............. Blows:.............
ImpSP:............. Shots:.............
 Fear:............. Might:.+...........


  [Character Equipment]

a) a Battle Axe of Westernesse (2d8) (+6,+9) (+2)
     +2 strength, dexterity, constitution.
     Prevents paralysis.
     Grants the ability to see invisible things.
     With this weapon, you would currently get 2 blows per round.  Each
     blow will do an average damage of 42.3 against orcs, 42.3 against
     trolls, 42.3 against giants, and 23.2 against normal creatures.
     
     With this item, you can expect to clear rubble in 3.8 turns, magma
     veins in 9.5 turns, quartz veins in 25 turns, and granite in 133 
     turns.
b) a Long Bow of Extra Might (x3) (+5,+11) (+1)
     +1 shooting power.
c) a Ring of Strength (+2)
     +2 strength.
     Sustains strength.
d) a Ring of Strength (+2)
     +2 strength.
     Sustains strength.
e) an Amulet of Resist Lightning
     Provides resistance to lightning.
     Cannot be harmed by electricity.
f) a Lantern (7182 turns)
     Cannot be harmed by fire.
     Radius 2 light.
g) Studded Leather Armour of Resist Fire (-1) [6,+3]
     Provides resistance to fire.
     Cannot be harmed by fire.
h) (nothing)
i) a Small Metal Shield of Resist Acid [4,+7]
     Provides resistance to acid.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
j) The Hard Leather Cap of Irchar [2,+16] (+4)
     +4 intelligence.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     Grants the ability to see invisible things.
     When activated, it creates a lightning bolt with damage 6d6.
     It takes 7 to 12 turns to recharge after use.
k) (nothing)
l) a Pair of Steel Shod Boots [6,+5]


  [Character Inventory]

a) 2 Books of Magic Spells [Magic for Beginners] {@m0}
b) 2 Books of Magic Spells [Incantations and Illusions] {@m2}
c) 13 Potions of Cure Critical Wounds
d) a Potion of Healing
e) 2 Potions of Speed
f) 3 Potions of Heroism
g) 8 Scrolls of Phase Door
h) a Scroll of Remove Curse
i) 8 Scrolls of Identify {@r0}
j) 3 Scrolls of Word of Recall
k) 2 Rods of Treasure Location (1 charging) {@z0 !!}
l) a Rod of Light
m) a Rod of Illumination {@z5}
n) 2 Wands of Teleport Other (16 charges)
o) 2 Staves of Teleportation (14 charges)
p) a Staff of Identify (1 charge)
q) The Cloak of Mirilos (+6,+1) [1,+13] (+3)
     +3 strength, wisdom, dexterity, constitution.
     Provides resistance to acid, blindness, nexus, disenchantment.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     Sustains constitution.
     Aggravates creatures nearby.
r) The Battle Axe of Bormel (2d8) (+10,+13) [+2] (+3)
     +3 attack speed.
     Provides resistance to dark.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     Grants the ability to see invisible things.
     Aggravates creatures nearby.
     When activated, it detects treasure, traps, doors, stairs, and all 
     creatures nearby.
     It takes 56 to 110 turns to recharge after use.
     With this weapon, you would currently get 5 blows per round.  Each
     blow will do an average damage of 64.6 against demons, and 26.4
     against normal creatures.
     
     With this item, you can expect to clear rubble in 5.0 turns, magma
     veins in 13 turns, quartz veins in 40 turns, and not affect 
     granite.
s) 20 Arrows (1d4) (+2,+6)
     Fired from your current missile launcher, this arrow will hit targets
     up to 140 feet away, inflicting an average damage of 78.7 against
     normal creatures.
     35% chance of breaking upon contact.
t) 87 Arrows (1d4) (+0,+0) {@f0}
     Fired from your current missile launcher, this arrow will hit targets
     up to 140 feet away, inflicting an average damage of 54.5 against
     normal creatures.
     35% chance of breaking upon contact.


  [Home Inventory]

a) a Potion of Healing
     
     When ingested, it heals you a really large amount (35% of max HP, 
     minimum 300HP), heals cut damage, and cures stunning, poisoning, b
     lindness, and confusion.
     Provides nourishment for about 100 turns under normal conditions.
b) a Ring of Resist Cold
     Provides resistance to cold.
     Cannot be harmed by cold.
     
c) a Ring of Damage (+0,+9)
d) an Amulet of Resist Acid
     Provides resistance to acid.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     
e) Studded Leather Armour of Resist Lightning (-1) [6,+3]
     Provides resistance to lightning.
     Cannot be harmed by electricity.
     


  [Options]

Maximize effect of race/class bonuses        : yes (adult_maximize)
Randomize some of the artifacts (beta)       : yes (adult_randarts)
Restrict the use of stairs/recall            : no  (adult_ironman)
Restrict the use of stores/home              : no  (adult_no_stores)
Restrict creation of artifacts               : no  (adult_no_artifacts)
Don't stack objects on the floor             : no  (adult_no_stacking)
Lose artifacts when leaving level            : no  (adult_no_preserve)
Don't generate connected stairs              : no  (adult_no_stairs)
Adult: Monsters chase current location       : yes (adult_ai_sound)
Adult: Monsters chase recent locations       : yes (adult_ai_smell)
Adult: Monsters act smarter in groups        : yes (adult_ai_packs)
Adult: Monsters learn from their mistakes    : no  (adult_ai_learn)
Adult: Monsters exploit players weaknesses   : no  (adult_ai_cheat)
Adult: Monsters behave more intelligently (broken): no  (adult_ai_smart)
Score: Peek into object creation             : no  (score_peek)
Score: Peek into monster creation            : no  (score_hear)
Score: Peek into dungeon creation            : no  (score_room)
Score: Peek into something else              : no  (score_xtra)
Score: Know complete monster info            : no  (score_know)
Score: Allow player to avoid death           : no  (score_live)

[Pete Mack]

Neither. 5 x 26 = 130. That's not enough damage/round to be worth aggravation, especially since you are already doing that kind of damage with your bow. If you were getting 600 dam/round, it might be another story. Wait until you are endgame strong before you think about aggravation. (You might want to carry the cloak as a swap, since it has some nice resists.)

[Magnate]

What would people think about the idea of preventing randarts ever getting aggravate? It seems to be a total no-go, and there's no point generating randarts that nobody will use.

For info, the generator puts aggravate on roughly the same number of items as aggravate in the original artifact set. There are 19 of those (of which a significant proportion were added by JLE). In practice you usually get slightly fewer aggravating randarts: about 12-16 IME.

I would be happy to get rid of aggravation altogether, or perhaps limit it to hugely powerful endgame randarts (power >100). This breaks another link with artifact.txt, but we're already heading in that direction with coming changes to rarity, depth and cost etc.

Just wondered if anyone had any views. I've found myself unable to use the amazing Phial I posted in the other thread, because aggravation is too much hassle. That's after I doubled the rating of aggravate from -15 to -30.

CC

[PaulBlay]

Originally Posted by Magnate

That's after I doubled the rating of aggravate from -15 to -30.

Double it again to -60

Or generate randarts with aggravate on dungeon level 1 where people might be actually grateful for them.

Or treat them as heavily cursed and allow *Remove Curse* to cancel aggravate.

Or allow either *Remove Curse* or remove curse to cancel aggravate for a limited period (longer for the more powerful *remove curse*).

Anyway it seems a pity to get rid of them entirely.

[Pete Mack]

Your suggestion of limiting aggravation to things with a very high base value seems right. Certainly, in V things that aggravate are either cursed or endgame strong, with a few exceptions. And mostly, I'm not willing to aggravate unless my melee weapon is extremely strong, like Doomcaller or Deathwreaker. Even with Calris, I'll mostly use it as a swap.

There are a couple non-weapon artifacts I keep in storage (eg: rNexus for Sauron), or use as a swap (eg: the Palantir for Clairvoyance), if I'm not otherwise aggravating.

[CunningGabe]

I'd certainly support randarts never getting aggravate. Aggravation is aggravating!

[buzzkill]

Originally Posted by PaulBlay

Or treat them as heavily cursed and allow *Remove Curse* to cancel aggravate.

Allow *Remove Curse*, or the all new *Disenchantment* to cancel a random attribute, possibly aggravation.

[Pete Mack]

I think the real problem here is that aggravation is not an offsetting attribute in the standard artifacts except for a few exceptional cases. For the most part, it's either for cursed artifacts, or for extremely powerful ones like Doomcaller and Deathwreaker. Those are so strong that you can afford to use them and just slaughter everything that comes. (The others are more useful as swaps, or for late-game casters who can teleport, banish, or *destroy* most monsters.)

[PowerDiver]

Originally Posted by Magnate

What would people think about the idea of preventing randarts ever getting aggravate? It seems to be a total no-go, and there's no point generating randarts that nobody will use.

I agree. With added emphasis so the forum will accept my post.

[Magnate]

I'm convinced. I'll add a check for power > 100 before non-cursed randarts can get aggravate. I'll wait and see if anything more sophisticated develops along the lines of removing attributes etc. (sounds like forging ...).