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Old June 7, 2015, 12:59   #71
AnonymousHero
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So, just on a whim I decided to hack together auto-*ID*-on-move-onto (AIOMO) for my Tome2 fork. I will continue to play-test as I do other playtesting for other urelated changes, but here are a couple of initial observations which might be of interest:
  • AIOMO practically begs for the removal of items which only have downsides, but no upsides. I consider this a good thing because this is just a generally useful game design principle.
  • The beginning of the game is a lot faster since you don't have to return to town to get identify scrolls and/or use services to identify stacks of early-game things such of !ResistHeat. It also means that money has even less relevance early on -- *ID* is extremely (relatively) expensive early on in T2.
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Old June 7, 2015, 15:11   #72
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Personally I like the way identify works currently. Fuzzy detection is awesome and gives rogues an advantage and a reason to keep enlightenment potions. I like ID by use but I think more properties should be immediately known so you don't ever get the {tried} flag, and so you are not trying to get breathed on by different elements to see what you resist. At some point in the game ID becomes trivial because you have either a stack of identify staves or a low enough failure rate on the spell to cast it whenever. Perhaps at that point you could implement the id by stepping on/picking up. I think adding it in the early game will remove too much. Like the situation where you are in a tough spot against a pack of orcs and you're hoping that unknown potion is speed or berserk strength and not sleep.
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Old June 7, 2015, 15:56   #73
Therem Harth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonymousHero View Post
So, just on a whim I decided to hack together auto-*ID*-on-move-onto (AIOMO) for my Tome2 fork. I will continue to play-test as I do other playtesting for other urelated changes, but here are a couple of initial observations which might be of interest:
  • AIOMO practically begs for the removal of items which only have downsides, but no upsides. I consider this a good thing because this is just a generally useful game design principle.
  • The beginning of the game is a lot faster since you don't have to return to town to get identify scrolls and/or use services to identify stacks of early-game things such of !ResistHeat. It also means that money has even less relevance early on -- *ID* is extremely (relatively) expensive early on in T2.
Interesting. That's an even more aggressive approach than I took. Harder to justify thematically IMO, but makes sense in terms of gameplay, and it's not like Angband is about "immersive experience" anyway.

I'll have to try this. For my part though, I'll note that even pseudo-ID on move-over was a huge improvement. It's surprising how much tedium it gets rid of to just remove the need to pick up items.

Edit: re useless items... hmm. Maybe some should have uses. Cursed items to be used in necromancy? Bad potions used as throwing weapons, if you're a warrior or archer with good throwing skill?
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Old June 7, 2015, 16:38   #74
Zireael
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UnAngband has potions being throwable and I consider it a brilliant idea.

First, it gives bad potions an use (they affect the monster you threw them at) and secondly, it introduces an alternative method to drink-ID'ing.

Other cursed items should also have some sort of use IMHO.
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Old June 7, 2015, 17:15   #75
Nomad
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Originally Posted by AnonymousHero View Post
  • AIOMO practically begs for the removal of items which only have downsides, but no upsides. I consider this a good thing because this is just a generally useful game design principle.
  • The beginning of the game is a lot faster since you don't have to return to town to get identify scrolls and/or use services to identify stacks of early-game things such of !ResistHeat. It also means that money has even less relevance early on -- *ID* is extremely (relatively) expensive early on in T2.
I feel like these points presuppose a conservative playstyle where you're identifying stuff solely by magical/shop means and not relying on ID-by-use. In Vanilla I identify stacks of early game consumables by reading/drinking them on the spot, so your second point doesn't apply, and the wholly negative items also add a minor element of interesting risk to the experience.
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Old June 7, 2015, 17:22   #76
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Originally Posted by Therem Harth View Post
Edit: re useless items... hmm. Maybe some should have uses. Cursed items to be used in necromancy? Bad potions used as throwing weapons, if you're a warrior or archer with good throwing skill?
Right -- I should have said "remove/redesign" when mentioning bad items. IMO it would be great if bad potions could also get actual real uses rather than just being automatically and immediately squelched[1]. Not that the T2 code is really amenable to much work here at this point, but one can dream...

In general T2/Angband (and that whole line) doesn't have quite as many crazy interactions as the *Hack-derived/inspired games, but I encourage others to try this just to see if there are places where there are missing redesign oppurtunities that are being missed just because we've gotten so used to how things are currently.

[1] Potion of Corruption is kind of interesting here because it can give you powerful effects, but it can also basically ruin your game permanently. (If you find it early enough it's usually worth a shot since you can just suicide the character if it doesn't work out.)
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Old June 7, 2015, 17:25   #77
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Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
I feel like these points presuppose a conservative playstyle where you're identifying stuff solely by magical/shop means and not relying on ID-by-use. In Vanilla I identify stacks of early game consumables by reading/drinking them on the spot, so your second point doesn't apply, and the wholly negative items also add a minor element of interesting risk to the experience.
Right, the problems are definitely less pronouned in current vanilla since there's nothing game-ending in V whereas there are game-ending possiblities early on in T2. However, in V, once you learn the trick (spoiler: stand on stairs), identification of consumables also becomes a completely automatic and non-dangerous thing which only costs you a few turns.

Last edited by AnonymousHero; June 7, 2015 at 18:16.
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Old June 12, 2015, 20:04   #78
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After playing with auto-*ID* a bit more, I think I've come to the conclusion that T2 must have auto-*ID*. (I may consider scaling it back to the rune-based idea people have been talking about if that's feasible.)

It just gives sooo much smoother gameplay where you don't have to pause dungeon exploration every once in a while to go to town to scum for not-always-available *Identity* scrolls. This could perhaps also be achieved by eliminating *Identify* as Vanilla did -- I haven't tried that in T2.

The only problem is what to do about all the identification items/scrolls/spells/etc. And cursed items...
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Old June 12, 2015, 20:22   #79
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Originally Posted by AnonymousHero View Post
After playing with auto-*ID* a bit more, I think I've come to the conclusion that T2 must have auto-*ID*. (I may consider scaling it back to the rune-based idea people have been talking about if that's feasible.)

It just gives sooo much smoother gameplay where you don't have to pause dungeon exploration every once in a while to go to town to scum for not-always-available *Identity* scrolls. This could perhaps also be achieved by eliminating *Identify* as Vanilla did -- I haven't tried that in T2.

The only problem is what to do about all the identification items/scrolls/spells/etc. And cursed items...
From what I remember of ToME 2, it has a massive too-much-junk problem. Auto-ID solutions are a partial fix; it really needs a decent squelch system and/or an overhaul of monster drops.
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Old June 12, 2015, 20:32   #80
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From what I remember of ToME 2, it has a massive too-much-junk problem. Auto-ID solutions are a partial fix; it really needs a decent squelch system and/or an overhaul of monster drops.
TMJ is indeed a huge issue in T2, but I tend to think that it mostly follows from having a lot of (infinite) dungeons. There are obvious exceptions -- such as about four-six categories of items which are useful only to one specific class each. (Player traps, runes, essences, etc.)

Squelch in T2 actually works reasonably well IMO, but it's annoying that you have to walk over things to squelch them. Granted, it's based on actually destroying items rather than just making them invisible, but I somehow find that more reassuring when the game has quite limited stacks of items per tile (23, IIRC) and you're fighting a lot of dragons in an ASC. Actually, once you're past level 25-30 experienced players will just start squelching all non-artifacts -- which is effectively a sort of auto-*ID* in that it eliminates all uninteresting objects automatically.

EDIT: Oh, and I also discovered recently that there's rather a lot of code to deal with eating and hacking up corpses which (seems) to not actually do anything interesting. (Except provide fodder for Alchemists that may need body parts.) In short it's an incredibly ad-hoc system which I don't actually was really thought through at the "game" level at any point. It's just a big ball of mud.

EDIT#2: Considering how niche many of the classes are and were (during the heyday of T2), I think I might actually remove Alchemists, Runemasters, Geomancers and Bards. They're taking up absurdly much complex code and they're all broken in different ways. Sorry, didn't mean for this to devolve into a theorycrafting-on-how-to-fix-T2-thread. I'll stop now .

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