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Old April 9, 2014, 15:27   #11
MarvinPA
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For mpa-sil, absolutego made a patch making the second and third sils use the same difficulty as the first one. I've not played much recently so can't really comment on how well it works out (but I think the first sil's difficulty is still in an okay place?). As debo mentioned though, this is mostly aimed at cases where you've killed Morgoth and are in no danger from anything else, and can just take as long as you like cutting. So maybe changes making it even harder to become ridiculously strong and kill Morgoth would be good for making that less likely to happen in the first place. :P
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Old April 14, 2014, 20:45   #12
bron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taptap
Morgoth kills without any sharpness are overall quite rare
It's not really all that hard to kill Morgoth without sharpness. I've done it several times using Rapid Fire and Poison Flaming arrows. Flaming arrows of Piercing also work. And of course a good Song of Slaying Bonus helps a lot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by half
The theory had been to require some form of sharpness to get all of them
It's a reasonable theory, even if I don't really like the idea that winning big virtual requires that you get lucky (or be a smithing character). The trouble is that to win big you either need to be lucky enough to have a weapon break on the 2nd Silmaril (which is maybe just barely possible without a sharp weapon), or you need to be lucky enough to find TWO sharp weapons, since one of them is going to break on the 3rd Sil. I dislike the idea that exactly when the weapon breaks can have a large effect on the level of victory (i.e. whether or not you are able to remove the 3rd Sil), yet it is completely random, and the coin isn't flipped until the very end. This is a large part of the reason why I've been playing almost exclusively Smithing characters with 1.2.1: by making my own sharp weapons I can remove the uncertainty (that, and I like smithing).

I will say that in fact I personally really like the idea that there are different levels of victory possible, at ascending levels of difficulty. So (despite the preceding paragraph) I don't actually have any real problem with the notion that "to win big, you have to play a smith," any more than the notion that "to be a great archer, you have to play an elf." But I don't think that is the intent.

I don't pretend to have the right answers here. Perhaps one could simply not give extra points for additional Sil's and/or for killing Morgoth. So then the game itself only acknowledges one level of victory, and the rest is just for personal satisfaction. You already don't get extra points for the in-game "no artefacts" or "disconnected stairs" challenges, or even for Edain vs. Noldor, despite the added difficulty. And there are a host of other challenges people set for themselves (e.g. "3 Skills"). So the notion of getting 3 Sils and/or killing Morgoth won't go away. But perhaps (?) if the ladder stopped acknowledging it, there would be less angst about it, and more games where a player wins by grabbing just one sil and getting out.
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Old April 14, 2014, 22:06   #13
locus
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You can't make people not care about getting 3 Sils unless you make it literally impossible or you make it just as easy as one. Pretending it doesn't matter on the ladder is just going to make the ladder worse, not actually solve the problem.
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Old April 14, 2014, 23:07   #14
taptap
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bron View Post
It's not really all that hard to kill Morgoth without sharpness. ... Flaming arrows of Piercing also work.


Well, flaming piercing arrows or double branded arrows probably do work, but both are stacked armour breaking effects. Piercing arrows actually ARE unnerfed sharpness in its full beauty - just not triple stacked (w. song of sharpness, fire, poison) as archers went in 1.1. Also, it should be quite possible to kill Morgoth with a subtle deathblade without any additional sharpness. (Imo easier than doing it with a heavy weapon which is otherwise more obviously armour breaking.) Yet, somehow the nerf to sharpness seems to have made most players rely more on other sources of sharpness, not the alternatives to sharpness.

The other sharpness (flaming arrows):

Personally, I would get rid of flaming arrows altogether and make piercing arrows a little more common - or make it more obviously magic (by moving it to the song tree) or writing a message when used the first time. It is a silly trope that should offend every Englishman (and everyone who ever drew a bow). It may have its origin in JRR Tolkien - meant to be magical with him - but well you see "armour breaking" flaming arrows in tons of games, not meant to be fantasy but medieval, nowadays. This is just wrong. If anything armour penetration, precision etc. is worse when you shoot an arrowhead with a small "payload" of incendiary material. Good enough for the roofs of times past, but in no way burning through armour (or burning mount and rider wholesale as in total war games).

Ladder:

You could just sort it differently, say turncount only or winner with lowest experience spent. If there are no bonus points for creating a bug in the game (killing Morgoth) people might try the canonical way (I might say I came quite close in the last competition by singing Lorien to put Morgoth to sleep, taking one Sil, losing Angrist in the throne room and death at 50ft although to a different opponent) more often In fact this is a luxury problem only a few players care about (and they shouldn't necessarily drive the balancing).

Last edited by taptap; April 14, 2014 at 23:17.
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Old April 15, 2014, 00:10   #15
locus
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The "canonical way" is to care about getting multiple sils and to break angrist trying to get a second one out.
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Old April 15, 2014, 02:09   #16
bron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taptap
:Piercing arrows actually ARE unnerfed sharpness in its full beauty
Yes, of course; point taken. But you can't use arrows to dig out the Sils.
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