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Old September 7, 2011, 04:50   #11
NoSurrender
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I wasn't aware acid halved like that. That's good to know. Bile demons are not quite as dangerous as I previously supposed.
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Old September 7, 2011, 07:03   #12
Timo Pietilš
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Check out line 15 in your spreadsheet and tell me how Sting beats that. Also you are not varying the gauntlets, you have Fingolfin in home which is way better than any Paur* (and actually might make a difference between Hurin, Eorlingas and Sting). Fingolfin also has FA, so if there is a penalty for some combination from that, then that counters it. Also Eorlingas seems to beat both Hurin and Sting in all occasions of it appearing in the chart, only that you get less HP with it, which I bet I can find a combination to counter (Caspanion + Dor-Lomin + Dal-i-Thalion for example). You might want to keep line 32 in mind when choosing gear to endgame. If you find Thorin that line becomes a no-brainer (with perhaps Thalkettoth instead of Rohirrim).

Also you have valued most resist way too high. Nether resist for example has less value than blindness and confusion and even chaos because it has quite harmless side-effect, and light and dark resist have very low value if you have blindness resist. Nexus resist value depends of your stats, once maxed it has very low value (there is only one monster that breathes it at dangerous levels of damage). Hold life has low value, I would give it 20% max. Free Action is affected by saving throw, if your saving throw is 100%+ then you don't need FA. Regen has low value, a bit higher than feather fall, unless you are playing pure spellcaster in which case I would put it on par with Hold life (still low value, but higher).

Reason why Gorlim doesn't work well in endgame is lack of Dor-Lomin fighting stats which means serious re-tweak of your other gear especially for CON, dropped saving throw and less mana. You get saving throw against Brain smash and if it fails you get slowed down.
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Old September 7, 2011, 16:16   #13
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Of course, a lot of those valuations are personal. I value regeneration more highly than you do, Timo, and plenty of people value Hold Life higher than either of us.
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Old September 7, 2011, 16:40   #14
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Of course, a lot of those valuations are personal. I value regeneration more highly than you do, Timo, and plenty of people value Hold Life higher than either of us.
Yes, but would you count regen (or hold life) higher than chaos resist? There are quite a few dangerous monsters with chaos attacks deep in the dungeon (hounds, Pit Fiends, couple of Wyrms, Jabberwocks) and hallucination really sucks.

There are also a bit weird dependencies like confusion depending on saving throw. I think anything that hits (bolt/ball/breath/melee) you and can cause confusion will do that regardless of saving throw, so saving throw would be only against brain smash? What else causes confusion?

That same applies to blindness.

I also value shard quite high (compared to other high resist) after Gelugons start to appear. Fighting any major demons almost always require that you dispatch couple of Gelugons as well. They also have good reward/risk ratio. Sound OTOH has dropped quite a bit in the value because sound breathers are so rare, and stunning from other sources is no longer affected by it.
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Old September 7, 2011, 17:02   #15
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Check out line 15 in your spreadsheet and tell me how Sting beats that.
Are you talking about the line with Hurin? The resistance score is 0.53 vs 0.93-0.94 for the others. A lack of resistance to shards is the cause of that. I lost one of my more recent games at slightly deeper level by double shards breath from Great Wyrms of Law.

Part of the problem is my style of play is best described as obsessive compulsive. I feel compelled to slay everything on each level. I don't even use Banishment scrolls. I must clear every graveyard from Green Glutton Ghost to Skull Druj. Same thing for zoos.


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Also you are not varying the gauntlets, you have Fingolfin in home which is way better than any Paur* (and actually might make a difference between Hurin, Eorlingas and Sting). Fingolfin also has FA, so if there is a penalty for some combination from that, then that counters it. Also Eorlingas seems to beat both Hurin and Sting in all occasions of it appearing in the chart, only that you get less HP with it, which I bet I can find a combination to counter (Caspanion + Dor-Lomin + Dal-i-Thalion for example). You might want to keep line 32 in mind when choosing gear to endgame. If you find Thorin that line becomes a no-brainer (with perhaps Thalkettoth instead of Rohirrim).
I am varying the gauntlets, but my penalty of 70% for lacking regeneration (which I admit is probably excessive) keeps Fingolfin from being competitive. If I added an Amulet of Regeneration to the mix it would show up in a few top combinations. I had a Flail of Gondolin with regeneration but I sold it a few levels back.

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Also you have valued most resist way too high. Nether resist for example has less value than blindness and confusion and even chaos because it has quite harmless side-effect, and light and dark resist have very low value if you have blindness resist. Nexus resist value depends of your stats, once maxed it has very low value (there is only one monster that breathes it at dangerous levels of damage). Hold life has low value, I would give it 20% max. Free Action is affected by saving throw, if your saving throw is 100%+ then you don't need FA. Regen has low value, a bit higher than feather fall, unless you are playing pure spellcaster in which case I would put it on par with Hold life (still low value, but higher).
Basically, my argument is that my suboptimal style of play ("must slay everything") causes me to overvalue resistances and regeneration compared to better players. I have to consider the possibility of double breaths since I have a tendency to find myself fighting hordes of ancient dragons, demons, and anything else that is often summoned. I remember once having to kill close to 100 solar taking on the top angel unique.

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Reason why Gorlim doesn't work well in endgame is lack of Dor-Lomin fighting stats which means serious re-tweak of your other gear especially for CON, dropped saving throw and less mana. You get saving throw against Brain smash and if it fails you get slowed down.
Thanks. You are right--it is difficult to compensate for the loss of STR, CON, and WIS. I will probably lose Gorlim now.
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Old September 7, 2011, 17:05   #16
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I am varying the gauntlets, but my penalty of 70% for lacking regeneration (which I admit is probably excessive) keeps Fingolfin from being competitive. If I added an Amulet of Regeneration to the mix it would show up in a few top combinations. I had a Flail of Gondolin with regeneration but I sold it a few levels back.
I forgot to mention that I'm now swapping Fingolfin and Paurhach. Fingolfin for major combat and Paurhach at all other times. Of course spreadsheet doesn't consider swaps (yet).
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Old September 8, 2011, 08:56   #17
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Are you talking about the line with Hurin? The resistance score is 0.53 vs 0.93-0.94 for the others. A lack of resistance to shards is the cause of that. I lost one of my more recent games at slightly deeper level by double shards breath from Great Wyrms of Law.
Double-breath of any of the major high elements can cause something like 800-900 points of damage regardless of resistance. You should never ever get into position where that can happen.
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Old September 8, 2011, 11:07   #18
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Double-breath of any of the major high elements can cause something like 800-900 points of damage regardless of resistance. You should never ever get into position where that can happen.
2 x (1600 / 3) = 1066, if you are talking about max damage (e.g. great wyrms). That's more than most non-warriors will ever have, so it's well worth avoiding.
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Old September 8, 2011, 11:51   #19
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2 x (1600 / 3) = 1066, if you are talking about max damage (e.g. great wyrms). That's more than most non-warriors will ever have, so it's well worth avoiding.
Getting that requires monster with over 4800 HP, so Great Wyrms can't actually do that (from non-uniques Greater Balrogs and GWoMC gets close, they have 4400 average HP). I think that is partially why people get surprised by how much damage for example Tarrasque can do with fire and cold.

However something relatively common like Gelugon can do 684 (average) with single-resisted double-cold and 857 with resisted double-shard with worst case scenario. Dracolichs can do over 800 points even with both breaths do get only second worst case scenario resist (or one with worst and second with average) with nether. Or combination of single-resisted cold and worst case nether.

Double-attacks are a bad bad thing, resisted or not. Double Grand Master Mystic melee can lead to death by KO against everyone. Double Black Reaver manastorms make 800 points of damage with no defense against it.
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Old September 8, 2011, 16:42   #20
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Double-breath of any of the major high elements can cause something like 800-900 points of damage regardless of resistance. You should never ever get into position where that can happen.
Whoa! I thought damage was capped and then resistances apply after. So for example Shards is capped at 500 damage. With resistance to Shards damage is max 167. To my mind that is a big difference.

For major high element breathers (or anyone who can summon them), I never go into battle without double resistance as a Rogue. Those are capped at 1600 damage. With double resistance, you divide by 9 and get 178 max. Again a big difference.
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