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Old January 10, 2022, 11:14   #51
Raerick
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So, as a preservationist, how did you feel about the loss of charisma, haggling, and door spiking?

You know my first experience of Angband was just prior to door spikes being removed. I was a complete newbie and didn't make it past my first encounter with an AMHD in a vault while playing unspoiled back then. I had wrongly assumed it wouldn't be much tougher than the single color ancient dragons and also didn't even know that I was in what was known as a vault. I took a break for a while as I was pretty busy in my personal life. I didn't get my first win until about five years ago, but I have had many since then.

I personally don't have what I would consider a lot of experience with old Angband. So I may not be one who gets how adding in water ruins anything from a preservation standpoint. However, comparing how the game felt when I first played it to when I came back and actually worked on getting a win the difference was huge. The amount of new room variety in particular made the early game a lot less boring when I did come back. Variety in terrain (and room variety counts toward this in my opinion) is one of the things that makes the 100 floor slog better. I have seen what I consider stupid opinions before to lower the depth to Morgoth or the "dive deep" (i.e. skip most of the game) mentality by veterans to circumvent the "boring" parts. These "solutions" are wrong in my opinion and the second one in particular, while prevalent, really isn't a solution so much as ignoring the problem. Thankfully that problem has almost disappeared as far as I am concerned and the "boring" parts of the game have been ironed out a lot over the past several releases. From my point of view having some water isn't comparable to having an overworld, forests, or whatever irrelevant terrain variation you want to compare it to. Having water (in the way that I suggested) would add variation to the experience of exploring Angband's floors without changing much at all concerning the core experience. In fact water would interlock well into the core experience if handled as suggested. Shallow water isn't comparable to the need to swim, drowning, or other drastic changes that would detract from the game's focus. Shallow water that affects movement speed would affect combat, add variation to encounters where it is present, and add variation to exploration.
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Old January 10, 2022, 11:53   #52
Sphara
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Again. If this is implemented, I'm pretty sure I can adapt. Doesn't mean I'd actually support it, but like many other players here, I've played variants that have slowing (or hasting) terrain. Not a fan, but it didn't push me away.

Whatever the beep is going to be done, just one request from my part: If there is going to be a movement speed penalty on some terrain, make it be just an integer number. I don't care for doing math of my actions for having something like -0.4 movement speed and +5 speed. Also, if you really wanna screw vanilla players, make this water appear on gauntlet level.

If I could choose between occasional water terrain and endless horde of huorns after >dlvl29, give me the goddamn water
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Old January 10, 2022, 13:10   #53
Bogatyr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raerick View Post
So, as a preservationist, how did you feel about the loss of charisma, haggling, and door spiking?
I don't think you can compare the addition of water (where does the feature creep stop -- forest levels?) to these.

Haggling was a pain, but no-sell has its problem points. The ability to trade a particularly valuable treasure item that you don't need for something that you do need that you luckily found in a store but couldn't otherwise afford is missed. Having to haul junk up for cash is not much missed.

Door spiking as I recall just didn't work well at all since anything you'd want to block behind a spiked door is usually strong enough to just break the door. Having magical and physical door securing as a mechanic I think would be interesting.

I definitely do not want to see change for change's sake, that's what I mean by "preservationist." Making the game better / more fun, that's what it's about. Vanilla Angbang (and its forebearers back to rogue) never had "fruity" terrain like other variants.
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Old January 10, 2022, 14:03   #54
Pete Mack
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I do like the ice and fire levels in NPP. (Forest and sand dont make so much sense.) NPP also has toxic fumes--I bet the original Angband had that, too.
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Old January 10, 2022, 14:47   #55
Raerick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogatyr View Post
I don't think you can compare the addition of water (where does the feature creep stop -- forest levels?) to these.
Certainly the removal of things isn't exactly the same as the addition of things. I do not agree though that the logic "adding water means soon we will have forests" works. I didn't revive this suggestion about water for simple thematic or "flavor" purposes. I can't think of what something like forests would add gameplay wise or how they would work in an underground fortress. Hence why I think it is an overworld strawman that has nothing to do with the suggestion.

Quote:
Door spiking as I recall just didn't work well at all since anything you'd want to block behind a spiked door is usually strong enough to just break the door. Having magical and physical door securing as a mechanic I think would be interesting.
I agree. I also think regardless of ways for the player to secure doors it would be interesting if there were various kinds of doors to be found. Say three different levels of door toughness ranging from current doors, iron, and steel doors. Aside from LOS obstruction doors are just paper. They work well enough as that, but it is kind of bland. Now, I wouldn't suggest going crazy with the number of types, nor should the heavier doors be used outside of special rooms or vaults. If doors weren't always paper some of the current overpowered but largely necessary measures for dealing with vaults and other special rooms could be tweaked.

Quote:
I definitely do not want to see change for change's sake, that's what I mean by "preservationist." Making the game better / more fun, that's what it's about. Vanilla Angbang (and its forebearers back to rogue) never had "fruity" terrain like other variants.
I don't think having movement affecting water is change for change's sake, but that is just a difference of opinion I guess. I would like to point out that refusing change just because it is different can be just as illogical as 'change for change's sake'.

Currently lava isn't everywhere and basically has no impact 99% of the time and water could be similar. In no way is the suggestion about adding water everywhere or making water absurdly simulationist. I mean I read this thread and there were posts that veered in that direction, but I am not supporting that take.
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Old January 11, 2022, 03:59   #56
Whelk
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I'd love to see water in certain dungeon floor types and vaults. It's refreshing to see something different or thematic every now and then, and having a little stream running down the center of some squiggly caverns, or a small pool tucked into the corner of a cave, or a fountain design in a vault or whatever would just be nice. The water wouldn't even have to do anything, though I could see a move speed penalty if it absolutely needs to do something mechanically to justify adding it. It'd be neat just to have in the toolbox for special room, vault, and dungeon floor designs.

That would make the game better / more fun to me.
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Old January 11, 2022, 09:22   #57
Bogatyr
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Originally Posted by Whelk View Post
I'd love to see water in certain dungeon floor types and vaults. It's refreshing to see something different or thematic every now and then, and having a little stream running down the center of some squiggly caverns, or a small pool tucked into the corner of a cave, or a fountain design in a vault or whatever would just be nice. The water wouldn't even have to do anything, though I could see a move speed penalty if it absolutely needs to do something mechanically to justify adding it. It'd be neat just to have in the toolbox for special room, vault, and dungeon floor designs.

That would make the game better / more fun to me.
Maybe it would make "feather falling" (which could be rebranded as a form of levitation?) finally be a useful attribute? IIRC, in variants with water, there was a levitation effect that allowed passage over terrain without it impeding movement.

Last edited by Bogatyr; January 11, 2022 at 09:36.
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