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Old May 12, 2013, 16:43   #11
debo
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Mapception!
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Old May 12, 2013, 18:29   #12
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IMHO map is a bit too large. It will be hard to make every place worth visiting and interesting. Maybe add some arbitrary number of hot spots, connected by roads, and keep the rest of the map as some kind of randomly generated every time not interesting wilderness, while make hot spot locations permanently saved and interesting. Also it may be worth adding random quest hot spots, so player can see messages where and when something interesting happen.
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Old May 12, 2013, 19:31   #13
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IMHO map is a bit too large. It will be hard to make every place worth visiting and interesting. Maybe add some arbitrary number of hot spots, connected by roads, and keep the rest of the map as some kind of randomly generated every time not interesting wilderness, while make hot spot locations permanently saved and interesting. Also it may be worth adding random quest hot spots, so player can see messages where and when something interesting happen.
That's the current FA model, and it works.
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Old May 13, 2013, 00:03   #14
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My god...........
Yes, it certainly isn't Sil. I think abandoning my plan to go east as far as Anduin was a good choice

In fact, the name says it all - the world is the centrepiece, and stuff happens in it. The idea is for the level of detail of travel to be largely up to player choice. For long journeys route planning will be important, but uneventful travel should be able to be ignored.

All this is the long term plan, too - I'm aiming to get to the point of having a technically playable game, then gradually fill in detail.
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Old May 13, 2013, 07:41   #15
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That's the current FA model, and it works.
FA randomly generates levels every time, it is effectively infinite map with infinite dungeons and wilderness.

What I think about is leaving wilderness infinite, while making towns, dungeons, special levels, etc. placed at the beginning and then saved. E.g. in FA themed level can be only visited once. IMHO it would be more fun if it is just saved and can be revisited.

More or less similar to ADOM just with random map and random quests.
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Old May 13, 2013, 13:05   #16
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Yes, it certainly isn't Sil.
But it is awe inspiring. If you can make a workable game with such scale, that will be amazing in and of itself. It sounds like you've considered the challenges and will have a good shot at achieving this. I'm really looking forward to it.
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Old May 13, 2013, 14:42   #17
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But it is awe inspiring. If you can make a workable game with such scale, that will be amazing in and of itself. It sounds like you've considered the challenges and will have a good shot at achieving this. I'm really looking forward to it.
Well, I'll achieve something - whether it's an enjoyable game or not, we'll see. I'm taking pretty much the opposite development trajectory to Sil, too; the early versions are going to be very rough. And I'm ultimately aiming for some sort of ghastly hybrid between FAangband, Sil, Dwarf Fortress, Minecraft and a single player offline MMORPG .
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Old May 13, 2013, 22:10   #18
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And I'm ultimately aiming for some sort of ghastly hybrid between FAangband, Sil, Dwarf Fortress, Minecraft and a single player offline MMORPG .
The game it makes me think of is Ultima VI, which I think is the first Ultima game (and perhaps one of the first overall?) to have a single scale map that has multiple cities across continents and is used for everything. Going from city to city was a major undertaking, which really felt like a journey. And this was achieved with an inconsistent scale, where cities actually took up something like 1/4 of the map, but because you didn't see it all at once you didn't notice. Achieving this with a genuine scale map is even more challenging.

That said, there is a serious 'simulation' part to many roguelikes and sometimes you need to just define some amazing new feature as the must-have thing that will make the project exciting and that everything else has to work around. A single scale map of the whole of Beleriand in 8 yard squares is such a thing.
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Old May 13, 2013, 22:59   #19
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That said, there is a serious 'simulation' part to many roguelikes and sometimes you need to just define some amazing new feature as the must-have thing that will make the project exciting and that everything else has to work around. A single scale map of the whole of Beleriand in 8 yard squares is such a thing.
That is pretty much exactly what has happened here - the more I thought about it, the more I realised that I wasn't going to be happy with anything else.

I should say, too, that Sil has been an inspiration to me - in particular, the way that you have started with Angband and kept the bits you wanted, but not been afraid to throw away fundamental features.
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Old May 14, 2013, 05:23   #20
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Generally when you decide to make an overworld system, you have a choice: either you can "iconize" cities and other important landmarks so that they appear to take up very little space on the world map, but the scale shifts when you enter them, or you can have cities at the same scale as the rest of the overworld. The former system has realism issues, while the latter system has one of these two problems:

1) The cities take up so much of the game world that the "wilderness" feels tiny in comparison (IIRC Ultima 7 had this problem).
2) The game world is vast, procedurally-generated at some level, and tedious to explore because there's nothing in it.

I tend to prefer the unrealistic iconized approach for gameplay reasons, but hey, if you think you can solve the issues that the "one scale for everything" approach has, go for it.
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