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Old January 31, 2019, 10:08   #11
wobbly
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Sangband has water following the O rules or close enough too & more of it. It looks pretty but is otherwise annoying. Drop a bunch of stuff just so you can cross & pick up your ammo, o damn now too much weight with the ammo, some more annoyance of inventory jiggling...

I played Unangband a bit & found the torch going out mechanic annoying too.

Basically I'm all for water being added as long as it's done in a way that isn't going to be a UI hassle for the player.

Incidentally I'm still unsure what passable rubble actually does (apart from blocking LOS). I am however sure that 'l'ook followed by 'r'ecall doesn't bring up the info I'm after. If we are going to have terrain it'd be nice to have a way for the player to find out what it actually does.
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Old January 31, 2019, 11:40   #12
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I'm not a huge fan of water tiles in roguelikes in general, although it's hard to criticize here beforehand. Before I know how it is going to be done, that is. For my part, adding water will be tolerated but probably not appreciated. If its gonna be always-avoid-type of terrain like it is in ADOM, Nethack, Brogue and DCSS, I'm just going to walk, teleport or phase out of there and ignore it, if it's humanly possible.

If it gets done, please do not add item destruction/corrosion with it for more 'realism'!
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Old January 31, 2019, 12:29   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
Incidentally I'm still unsure what passable rubble actually does (apart from blocking LOS).
That's about it
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Old January 31, 2019, 13:02   #14
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I feel it's pretty weird to have lava and _not_ water.

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Old January 31, 2019, 13:03   #15
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Of course, there is the question of what happens when water and lava meet.

I don't think water should be a perfect defense against powerful fiery monsters (like big dragons). I'd like to see them either able to fly over the water, or dry it up, or just wade on in.

Water should also be generatable:
- by monster water spells like the Mystic's
- by a player spell 'create water'
- by watery or icy creatures leaving a trail behind them
- when a water elemental is killed (sploosh)

Consider adding 'thirst' to the game alongside 'hunger'.

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Old January 31, 2019, 13:19   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antoine View Post
Of course, there is the question of what happens when water and lava meet.
Water should evaporate and lava would become 'cold' to form a rock - passable rubble or a wall also could depend - is it shallow water/lave (lava depth matters!)

Also it's great thing to be able to 'freeze' water (with spells or breath of powerful frosty mobs)
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Old January 31, 2019, 15:46   #17
Derakon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antoine View Post
Of course, there is the question of what happens when water and lava meet.
One of the reasons my proposal was so simple is explicitly to punt on these kinds of simulationist questions. There is a lot of complexity that you could introduce in terms of rules, but my gut instinct is that having that level of hand-coded detail doesn't actually add much to the gameplay, and it makes the system more complex and bug-prone.

(You can avoid even having the question if water and lava simply never generate on the same level)

Tangar: regarding surprising the player, certainly the game should have the scope to surprise the player through unforeseen combinations of game elements. But each individual element should have straightforward mechanics that the player can readily understand. For example, if sufficiently strong firebreath could convert water into steam, which dealt immense damage as the player was broiled in their armor...that's surprising in a bad way, both because weaker firebreath didn't create steam and because the steam is so deadly. But if you're exploring a dungeon and run into a situation where there's a river with some Fire Hounds on the other side, that's surprising in a good way. You have a novel challenge to deal with that you couldn't have had without the new mechanic, and it's clear how the various elements interact.
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Old January 31, 2019, 15:52   #18
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Originally Posted by tangar View Post
Water in Angband

It's too harsh.. -5 speed is death sentence, because speed influence not only for moving, but to performing actions and attacking monsters.
If you walk in 3' deep water you lase half of your base speed - i find that fair. If you do this against archers, breathers or casters... well, you learn not to do it next time. Against melee opponents it may be an escape as they also lose speed or may even not be able to enter the water.
Races could get different penalty for walking in water, depending on their height. Hobbits/dwarves suffer much more than half trolls.
You can make fire based spells have a higher failure rate and do less damage but that probably does not fit into the game mechanics well and personally i would not do it (but logically if you try to burn a swimming snake with fireball it's not that effective).

In general water would be interesting to see and could add more options. But i don't miss it currently.
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Old January 31, 2019, 17:49   #19
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I also really like Derakon's suggestion: slowing unless flying, some monsters can't walk on it. Logical, interesting and not annoying.
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Old January 31, 2019, 21:18   #20
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Another possibility here is water just can't be crossed by the player.

At the moment I'm kind of leaning toward not introducing it at all; it is an interesting discussion, though. And maybe someone will come up with a killer reason for it that I won't be able to ignore.
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