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Old February 13, 2022, 15:52   #1
skydyr
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Dying around 800-900 ft

I've been getting farther than ever before in sil-q, but I seem to have hit a wall around 800 to 900 feet where what I've been doing no longer works against what I find, and I'm not sure what I'm missing or need to do to succeed farther.

Character dump is here: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=24918

Is there some set of abilities or equipment I desperately need but don't realize, or do I just need more practice at that depth to figure out how enemies move and all? This past death I fought and killed Tevildo but didn't realize he had other uniques with him plus an Ancient Serpent that was dealing me damage. I ended up getting stuck behind some spectres or something I didn't see and dying while surrounded after exchanging places in the wrong direction.
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Old February 13, 2022, 18:33   #2
wobbly
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The unseen foe is probably a serpent "it bites you" and seems to be hiding in a darkness aura. Maybe an amethyst serpent. Oikerio triple crit-ed you there and a lot of that is being surrounded by so many enemies. You could try outwit or crowd fighting but the main solution is not getting surrounded in the 1st place or exchanging out. I mean, the build looks strong enough so part of it is paying enough attention to notice there's a dark spot from the hidden monster. You had a turn in there where you stepped into the unseen foe instead of towards the wall.

Last edited by wobbly; February 13, 2022 at 19:01.
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Old February 13, 2022, 19:09   #3
Quirk
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With regard to this specific run:

You found and ditched Angrist. Angrist solves Grotesque problems as well as being the Sil-cutting weapon par excellence. Given you were packing two weapons of Final Rest, Angrist would probably have been a good swap for one. I will only ever ditch Angrist if my loadout is very strong.

You didn't take advantage of the free Song on elves. Given how cheap this is, if you aren't planning on taking Oath of Silence, I would absolutely find something to spend this on. Elbereth would have chased off the cats and werewolves for a fraction of your leftover XP. Staunching is always solid on a combat character.

Being surrounded is usually dangerous, and you probably want to back up Whirlwind Attack with something like Crowd Fighting or Flanking/Dodging if you are planning to take the fight into the open.

You had quite decent light radius, so if it was being cut so short you couldn't see something next to you it was time to be wary.

5K XP spare and some very good consumables e.g. Quickness left you quite a bit of room to adjust, so I think part of the problem was not realising the level of danger you were in when facing multiple enemies at once with at least one of them darkened.

You will find that retreat is occasionally necessary if you are to survive. The build could be optimised in places but I think it survives at 800-900 fine using a little more caution.
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Old February 14, 2022, 16:19   #4
skydyr
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I don't think I realized that Angrist was that strong. How does the armour piercing work, is it just the flat 5 damage from puncture?

I definitely didn't realize I was in as much trouble as I was in. By the time I saw the hidden enemies I was dead, I had exchanged places with the serpent previously and was trying to run for that hallway because there were enemies in the hall to the north. There were quite a few of them to block the light which I think I hadn't seen in a while and forgot could be a problem.

Also, how can you tell I was triple-critted from the dump? Are the messages different for different levels?

I'm relatively new at Sil and don't have a good feel for how the singing works. When I've tried to focus on it before, I never felt it was very effective, though it was all early on. It's only in the past week or so I've suddenly been able to get this deep, as previously I'd die around 400 or 500 at most. I think focusing on early smithing to help fill holes in my loadout has helped immensely with that.
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Old February 14, 2022, 16:34   #5
Pete Mack
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Monsters get big criticals when you are surrounded. "Listen" would have kept you out of this. Elbereth might have, too.
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Old February 14, 2022, 18:27   #6
Quirk
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Quote:
I don't think I realized that Angrist was that strong. How does the armour piercing work, is it just the flat 5 damage from puncture?
Sharp weapons ignore half the armour roll.

Grotesques have 8d4 armour, though most late-game enemies have less. Spiders have 1d4 armour, the serpents you were fighting 5d4 or 6d4. If you're using a sharpness weapon against a serpent or a grotesque, it's like having an extra 3d4 or 4d4 damage.

Angrist is not however sharp, but "very sharp". It is the only weapon in the game that ignores all armour. Even though Grotesques are immune to critical hits it will wear them down; serpents are not and will die much more quickly.

Puncture's guarantee of 5 damage if you failed to make a mark is separate from this.

Quote:
I definitely didn't realize I was in as much trouble as I was in. By the time I saw the hidden enemies I was dead, I had exchanged places with the serpent previously and was trying to run for that hallway because there were enemies in the hall to the north. There were quite a few of them to block the light which I think I hadn't seen in a while and forgot could be a problem.
Yeah, you need to be very careful around darkness auras. An ability that can help with this is Inner Light, which makes it much harder for enemies to blot out your light.

As Pete Mack says, enemies get bonuses for surrounding you, so you need to engage with some care when facing odds of five on one.

Quote:
Also, how can you tell I was triple-critted from the dump? Are the messages different for different levels?
"Oikeroi, Guard of Tevildo claws you!!!"
One ! for each crit. Same goes for your own strikes.

Quote:
I'm relatively new at Sil and don't have a good feel for how the singing works. When I've tried to focus on it before, I never felt it was very effective, though it was all early on. It's only in the past week or so I've suddenly been able to get this deep, as previously I'd die around 400 or 500 at most. I think focusing on early smithing to help fill holes in my loadout has helped immensely with that.
You can build fully around it, though normally melee builds do not; Lorien-stabbers or Elbereth-archers are fairly common. However most melee builds will want to reach into the song tree for something useful. The most favoured melee character song choices are probably Staunching or Challenge early on (Staunching is powerful regeneration, Challenge pulls enemies like archers toward you) and Staying later (bonuses to Will and armour). Song of Trees is also a useful branch off Staunching, as extra light saves lives.

Most of the other songs offer their own significant advantages e.g. Elbereth can stop you being swarmed if you start singing early enough, and Freedom gives you free action, saving you from pits, webs, slowing and enchantment of various sorts - and as the cost is quite low, it's worth making a small investment, trying different songs out and learning which suit your style best. You are unlikely however on a melee bruiser to go too badly wrong with Staunching for extra healing.

Last edited by Quirk; February 14, 2022 at 19:30.
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