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Old December 21, 2020, 12:54   #41
Selkie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estie View Post
Well I played blackguard and it was not an enjoyable experience.

In the early game, he is a cripple; I was carrying 2 stacks of 40 !clw and recalled when they were used up. Instead of a simple pressing of the rest key, I must click the "drink clw" macro multiple times and keep an eye on satiation.

His spell set, when it eventually comes online, is worse than a warriors. A detect monster spell that cant be used before you fight something ? How is that going to be useful. I carried the book because I wanted to play "as intended", but on top I was also carrying a staff of detect evil, like a warrior, to have some reliable detection at the time I need it - that is _before_ I start exploring and looking for trouble. If I was forced to play again, I wouldnt bother with the book.

Similar for berserk rage. Instead of a reliable stack of potions that I can drink before the fight starts, with no fail chance, while confused, blind and oom, I am supposed to use the spell with the exact same effect but which comes with a long list of drawbacks ? What is the idea here ?

So I made it to the endgame, 40ish clvl, 140 int, all books studied and ready to kill some high end uniques. For that, I want to buff up, right ? That means I must make sure I fight something weak first to get mana, then cast buffs in the right order - Werewolf last otherwise I cant do anymore casting - and even though I never touched bloodlust (I only saw the -speed detriment, maybe there are more - the description is vague, but thats plenty to stop me from ever using that spell), the mana requirements combined with the fail chance is such that I would run oom often before finishing the buffing sequence. So I just fought without werewolf active, which is better anyway if I also want to debuff the unique.

All this is far too intricate and prone to failure a procedure to be an effective tool for advancing the purpose of winning the game. You can play that way, you might even enjoy it, but its like playing a bookless artifactless hobbit mage - purely an exercise, refusing to take advantage of the tools at hand.

So after going through the tedium of yet another buff round to engage Drauglin, my casting of werewolf form failed (again), I retried, accidentally clicked yes when prompted to confirm a casting attempt with not enough mana and watched while Drauglin mauled my paralyzed self. I am not sorry it ended there.

We got rid of the endless identification sessions with rune id, and I am grateful for that; I find playing blackuard in the lategame an ordeal of similar magnitude.
Your experience is very different from mine.

You say you spammed CLW, and you also say you hardly bothered with spells in the first book. But casting spells in combat recovers HP really quickly. I was attacking using leap into battle on every attack I could.

Also you can charge your SP on pitiful beggars in the town before diving. This means you will always have enough mana for detect fear.

I never used the rest action. All it would do is drain all my mana. Instead I was really proactive in seeking fights, this was always the best way of keeping my HP and SP topped up. Any of the C packs of monsters are always essential for a blackguard, ants are also handy.

I really liked the spell set and especially liked how they combined together to make a character powerful and a monster weak.

I agree with you that a blackguard is weaker than a warrior in the early game, but is that a bad thing? I certainly wouldn't agree a blackguard is a cripple. I found a blackguard easier in the early game than a mage, and much stronger than a mage at level 33 (when werewolf kicks in).

I suppose it's a case that some races you enjoy more than others. I've never enjoyed playing a priest or paladin for example.
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Old December 21, 2020, 17:53   #42
DavidMedley
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Originally Posted by Estie View Post
Well I played blackguard and it was not an enjoyable experience.
It's interesting to get different perspectives. Thanks for sharing. A lot of the reviews lately have made me concerned that the BG class is overpowered. This competition seems to show they are competitive, at least judged on a turncount basis:
http://angband.oook.cz/competition.php?showcompo=234
Quote:
- A detect monster spell that cant be used before you fight something ?
- I must make sure I fight something weak first to get mana
One of the key skills for playing BG as they are currently constructed is to end most battles with a decent supply of SP. I don't love this; it doesn't feel berserky enough to me. I'd like it if you were encouraged to burn all SP and most HP to win every battle.

But other concerns won out over that, mainly wanting to reward players for aggressive, conflict seeking play and reduce the incentive to rest to full HP at every opportunity. I did some comparison shopping with Rage Mage in Frog and found the class did not do those 2 things above, which is why BG SP last much longer and BGs have no "hurt myself for SP" option. So maybe we can imagine that a BG needs to stay in an adrenaline-fueled state to be sharp for the next fight.

Also, when you get into the mid-and-late game, !Resore Mana is a big help. I often pop one in town if my SP are low, and thus save an inventory slot vs a class that needs to carry them into fights. Unlike other classes, it shouldn't be hard to keep your SP up once you're in a fight.
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berserk rage...What is the idea here ?
Trying to encourage melee-centric play, and that's hard to do if you're scared. +to-hit or +melee-skill isn't that great because it's so easy to hit anyway, and the increased crit chance isn't big enough. But hitting is still important, and more so with the changes that make Maim and Forceful Blow only activate with a successful hit. That said, pFear seems like the main benefit.
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Old December 21, 2020, 18:43   #43
Estie
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Yes I have "charged up" on townspeople before recalling. Thats ok and fun in the early game, but eventually its feels unnecessarily tedious a procedure to have to go through every time just to be able to do something you can do anyway if you just carry a device.

That you give berserk to a melee based character is understood; my question was why you give them an inferior version to the one that doesnt have the spell.

I did not spam spells for the healing effect because it takes less effort and is safer to spam clw.

The spellset does not "combine" at all; it feels jarring to end up with failed attempts at doing combos all the time, which is why I wouldnt recommend using the spells.

Maybe consider setting the BG spell fail chance to 0 (posssibly subject to a managable int requirement depending on spell level, but achievable in the early game; not int > 18). Since so much hinges on cast sequences succeeding, that would remove the worst offender of tedium.
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Old December 21, 2020, 18:53   #44
archolewa
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Honestly, I find that blackguards only have problems with Mana in the early game. Right around when I get Werewolf Form, my SP remains pretty much perpetually topped up, though that might be because Im pretty much always in Werewolf Form except when getting ready to fight a powerful opponent.

That being said, I do remember struggling with many of the problems Estie describes before the class clicked.

And I agree 100% that giving the Blackguard 0% spell failure would go a long way to making them less frustrating. Yes, they are ostensibly half-casters, except in my experience (havent played the new Ranger), half-casters dont generally rely on their spells in battle as much as a Blackguard does. Other half-casters have spells that are mostly pre-combat, and utility with the occasional spell you cast occasionally in combat. Blackguards rely on their spells in combat to the same degree full casters do, so I think it makes sense to let them get 0% spell failure.

Even if they only get 0% failure while Berserk Strength is active, sort of like how many of Rage Mages spells are stronger if cast while berserk in Frogcomposband. It would also give the berserker more incentive to berserk.
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Old December 21, 2020, 19:04   #45
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My experience is also very different. For me if bloodlust is running it never ends. Move, kill, move, kill, move, kill... I pretty much have to deliberately stop and sit in a corner for it to ever end. The buffs are near permanent in the endgame. Move, kill, move, kill... your SPs will overflow if you don't cast something and casting heals, so I cast before they end and stack up the duration.

Also if you aren't werewolfing you are missing out. It has fast move. Failing this once is losing less turns then moving at normal speed is.
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Old December 21, 2020, 19:19   #46
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Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
My experience is also very different. For me if bloodlust is running it never ends. Move, kill, move, kill, move, kill... I pretty much have to deliberately stop and sit in a corner for it to ever end. The buffs are near permanent in the endgame. Move, kill, move, kill... your SPs will overflow if you don't cast something and casting heals, so I cast before they end and stack up the duration.

Also if you aren't werewolfing you are missing out. It has fast move. Failing this once is losing less turns then moving at normal speed is.
I couldnt care less about game turns; what decides whether I enjoy a playstyle is clicks, more precisely meaningful clicks (repeating the former action is less tedium than performing a different one). I love priests because they have such a high efficieny/click ratio in the midgame.
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Old December 21, 2020, 19:26   #47
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I think the key benefit of werewolf forms fast moves isnt just fewer game turns in a high score sense, but rather the faster you are moving, the quicker you traverse the level. The quicker you traverse the level the less time your SP has to go down before you get into another fight, and the more time you have to find and kill things before other things wake up.
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Old December 21, 2020, 19:27   #48
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your talking about a class where losing turns is losing SPs.
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Old December 21, 2020, 19:34   #49
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Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
your talking about a class where losing turns is losing SPs.
Yes, and to prevent that loss i need to change (clicks) and change back again to recast (more clicks). With a normal class, I click once and have full mana.
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Old December 21, 2020, 19:36   #50
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Yes, and to prevent that loss i need to change (clicks) and change back again to recast (more clicks). With a normal class, I click once and have full mana.
???

To prevent the loss you kill more things. SPs go up when you hit or kill things.
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