Removal suggestions

[Magnate]

Originally Posted by nppangband

Will do. Is there any particular version/branch of the Angband source I should be working from?

Yes. It would be most helpful if you could patch against the "staging" branch of the official repository: http://github.com/angband/angband/tree/staging. Failing that, patching against the latest dev version from http://rephial.org/nightlies will be next best.

The patch I do will have all of the NPP Ainur, so all angels will be replaced, and there will be probably about 20 new monsters for your review. I am tileset challenged, so I won't attempt to update the graphics. But that is probably best held off until you all decide which ones you want to use.

To answer that other question, about the source being a simple search/replace, there are a couple things involving summoning and monster spellcasting that need to be verified. There are always a couple unexpected issues, even in simple changes like this.

Indeed - many thanks in advance for the patch. Thanks also for raising the point about tiles - we've finally got all four existing tile sets fully up-to-date (many thanks to Buzzkill), so I don't think we'll be adding monsters for which there are no tiles - but hopefully we can re-use several of the angel tiles.

@Antoine: yes, I think this is basically the proposition. As Jeff says, it's a little trickier than search-and-replace, but it should result in roughly the same monsters with different names. Obviously we'll review the Ainur and see how much they differ from the angels in terms of difficulty etc. I can't immediately see why adding more monsters would be a problem (aside from the tiles), but let's wait for the patch.

[fizzix]

Ok, in changing angels to ainur we need to come up with names for the angels. I'll throw out some suggestions. I will invent some Sindarin morphology because it doesn't really exist. Specifically, it seems -or in Sindarin is equivalent to our -er

Angel = Lesser Ainur
Archangel = Ainur
Seraph (hebrew for flame, burn) = Naaror (naara = burn)
Cherub (etymology obscure, possibly power) = Valor (val = power)
Archon = Greater Ainur

Azriel, Angel of Death (Hebrew for god's helper) = Gurtha, [something better than Ainur of Death] (gurtha = death)

Uriel, Angel of Fire (Hebrew for god's flame) = Lhach, [something better than Ainur of Fire] (lhach = flame)

Gabriel, the Messenger (Hebrew for god's strength) = Poldora, [??] (Poldora = strength)

ok that's enough playing around with Elvish for today.

[nppangband]

Originally Posted by Magnate

Thanks also for raising the point about tiles - we've finally got all four existing tile sets fully up-to-date (many thanks to Buzzkill), so I don't think we'll be adding monsters for which there are no tiles - but hopefully we can re-use several of the angel tiles.

I guess that crushes any hope of me sneaking Evil Iggy or Azathoth into Vanilla.

What NPP has is several A uniques (such as a couple of the blue wizards). For the non-uniques, each of the valar have lessor servants, servants, greater servants (so there are 42 non-unique ainur in the NPP monster list). Each one has a little bit of flavor based on the valar they serve (servants of Ulmo tend to use water based attacks, for example). That can be condensed down to just having lessor ainur, ainur, and greater ainur, which is what NPP had before Anssi Ramela branched it out.

The angle tiles work OK for Ainur, even if they aren't a perfect match.

[Max Stats]

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä

I prefer Ainur. Slaad doesn't say anything to me. Sounds like erroneous writing of salad. I'm no going to fight cabbage.

What isn't well known is that the Slaad were excellent crafters of ranged weapons. These masterpieces eventually became known as Slaad Shooters.

[Nick]

Just a little clarification on terminology (which I'll probably now get wrong...).

The Ainur (plural; singular Ainu) were the spirits that existed pre-creation. Some of them chose to incarnate in Middle-Earth. The greatest of these were the Valar (singular Vala) - Manwe, Varda (Elbereth), Ulmo etc.; 15 in all IIRC (including Melkor who became Morgoth). The others (and there were many) were the Maiar (singular Maia); the best known of these would be Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman, Melian, the balrogs.

So for generic angel replacements, I think you really want Angel = Maia (with whatever lesser/greater/whatever descriptors you like). For uniques you could potentially go with Valar, which is nuts, but no more nuts than killing Morgoth. Potential equivalents could be Azriel = Mandos, Gabriel = Orome, Uriel = Arien (Maia of the sun as in NPP - not a Vala, but still pretty special).

[Timo Pietilä]

Originally Posted by Nick

J
So for generic angel replacements, I think you really want Angel = Maia (with whatever lesser/greater/whatever descriptors you like). For uniques you could potentially go with Valar, which is nuts, but no more nuts than killing Morgoth. Potential equivalents could be Azriel = Mandos, Gabriel = Orome, Uriel = Arien (Maia of the sun as in NPP - not a Vala, but still pretty special).

You could never kill Mandos. Unlike Morgoth who had his power distributed over the land to control things Mandos didn't have such disadvantage. They do not need to keep their mortal form if they do not choose to do that. Killing Valar other than Morgoth is just out of the question. These things are truly immortal, they just can't be killed.

You have to go with Maiar, some of the Maiar that do not directly work for Morgoth were still pretty violent, like Ossë. These things can have their own agenda that doesn't have to be "good", Saruman for example is just tempted Maiar that chose to try to become power over all other powers (which we all know how that ended up).

[Therem Harth]

I have a hard time seeing Mandos cast a nether bolt. :P

It would be interesting to have Maiar as enemies though...

- Tilion could be the new Gabriel, though I'm thinking he should do some mental stuff too - mindblast and brain smash, maybe, to replace Gabriel's blindness thing. He should be fairly tough; IIRC the Silm mentions him fending off things that sound a lot like balrogs.

- Arien could of course be the Uriel replacement... Sort of. Breath fire and light, mana bolts, powerful physical attack. Should hopefully be a little tougher than Tilion.

- Osse: the sea is his thing, thus, water balls. Also, just for fun, give him high speed and sound breath. And melee attacks that stun.

- Orome: Think Herald of Manwe. Think flashy. Think slamming the player character around at high speeds. Give him speed, haste self, teleportation spells, and force breath, and round it out with hard-hitting melee attacks.

[nppangband]

I couldn't imagine putting the valar in the game. They should be tougher than Morgoth, since he poured so much of his power into creating dragons, balrogs, etc.. That would only make sense in some sort of "anti-angband" where the goal is to eliminate the other 13 valar on Melkor's behalf.

[Nick]

Tim and Jeff are quite right about killing non-Morgoth Valar. So it's Maiar all the way.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Therem Harth

I have a hard time seeing Mandos cast a nether bolt. :P

It would be interesting to have Maiar as enemies though...

- Tilion could be the new Gabriel, though I'm thinking he should do some mental stuff too - mindblast and brain smash, maybe, to replace Gabriel's blindness thing. He should be fairly tough; IIRC the Silm mentions him fending off things that sound a lot like balrogs.

- Arien could of course be the Uriel replacement... Sort of. Breath fire and light, mana bolts, powerful physical attack. Should hopefully be a little tougher than Tilion.

- Osse: the sea is his thing, thus, water balls. Also, just for fun, give him high speed and sound breath. And melee attacks that stun.

- Orome: Think Herald of Manwe. Think flashy. Think slamming the player character around at high speeds. Give him speed, haste self, teleportation spells, and force breath, and round it out with hard-hitting melee attacks.

I have trouble thinking of Uriel stronger than Gabriel, mainly because Gabriel is enormously annoying, while Uriel is just dangerous. Gabriel is an annoying angel summoner, who likes to slap you around with annoying, not really dangerous melee. Uriel summons an angel every now and then, blasts you with fire-ish stuff. If you give Arien damage and give Tilion effect attacks, like brain smash, br_light, br_sound, a new spell, stun(would give heavy stun or something).(btw, maiar should not summon each other, or anything much else, with the exception of Morgoth, Balrogs, and Sauron) it could work well.

Balrogs should have resist_base, and there should be a Balrog summoner.

What do you do with Azriel? Remove? What about just adding Azathoth from NPP?

You seem to be confusing Orome with Eonwe, who should definetly have an escort of Maiar and be able to summon them, be strong in melee, strong at ranged, weaving spells of destruction at you.

Other ideas(encyclopedia of arda)
Salmar A follower of Ulmo, who made the Ulumúri, the horns of white shell borne by his master. The music of the Ulumúri could create a yearning for the sea, and was never forgotten by those who heard it.(I have no idea what he could do, probably just a weaker Osse)

Uinen Called the Lady of the Seas, Uinen is the spouse of Ossë, and a follower of Ulmo. Her hair was said to spread through all the seas of the World, and she could gentle Ossë and thus bring calm seas. For this, she was an important Maia to sea-farers, and she was particularly revered by the Venturers of Númenor, who called themselves Uinendili, the 'devotees of Uinen'.(I don't know what she could have as powers, especially as she seems kind.)

Ilmarë The handmaid of Varda, and thus one of the most important of the Maiar. Ilmarë was said to be one of the best known of the Maiar in later ages, though she appears in no tale, and little is known of her beyond her name.(Cool, you can invent whatever powers you want.)


Another option is Melian, who seems pretty powerful, especially in the field of defense.
What about Gandalf, as a follower of Manwe, he could have cool powers. The Riders were scared of him, which seems strong. He defeated a Balrog. Aren't the Balrogs a bit weak at the moment, being about as strong as riders, while in the Silmarilion (and LotR) they are strong, dangerous creatures.