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Old November 11, 2013, 11:02   #11
TJS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
I feel old. Maybe I should retire from playing angband or at least commenting anymore. Last comment before I go away at least semi-permanently: I feel that forced descend is same as raping the core angband, game would not be angband anymore.
I dunno Timo, the game has got to the stage where no one wanted to work on it because it has been dominated in recent years by people shouting "That's not how it has always been done" or "I prefer it the way it is" whenever anyone wants to make any changes. I don't think those arguments are good enough anymore.

It's better to say what are the good/bad points of any suggested changes from a gameplay perspective and as Nick says he will listen to any constructive feedback.

He's going to be completely rewriting the codebase and making loads of improvements, so I think it is only fair that he gets to change some gameplay stuff as well.

I have the feeling that you won't appreciate anything other than simple tweaking regardless of whether the game is improved or not as you enjoy playing the game the way it is. But that's cool because old versions are always going to still be available. I honestly don't get what the problem with that is.
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Old November 11, 2013, 17:12   #12
emulord
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Originally Posted by LostTemplar View Post

Seriously, there is no reason but a terrible tradition, demanding any character in any role playing game to begin as a rat killer. Just make a starting character equal to an average lvl 35 angband character and get rid of all boring stuff. So 15 clvs and 50 dlvls will be ok probably.
I LOVE early game + low power scenarios. I played the crap out of Posband's early levels as centipedes and equally pathetic characters just to see "how powerful a blue icky thing can get".

Its much more easy to relate to a powerful character if you see their rise in power. Starting out as Hercules isn't as good as ascending to become Hercules.
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Old November 11, 2013, 19:32   #13
Derakon
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Originally Posted by TJS View Post
I'm still not 100% sure what forced descent actually is though.
In brief, a) you cannot go up (except to recall to town), and b) every time you go down (take down stairs or recall to dungeon) you end up at (max depth + 1).

As a result, recalling on level 98 means you must kill Sauron on level 99 before you can recall again -- and recalling on level 99 means you must kill Morgoth.
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Old November 12, 2013, 09:43   #14
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
As a result, recalling on level 98 means you must kill Sauron on level 99 before you can recall again -- and recalling on level 99 means you must kill Morgoth.
And also, just being on level 98 means that you must kill Sauron on the next level and having killed Sauron you will have to kill Morgoth on the level after that, right? Since you cannot replay any level, ever.
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Old November 12, 2013, 16:30   #15
Lionmaruu
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I would not like angband as much as I do if I could not play it the way we can play now(be it grinding or not grinding).

But I can understand the will to make birth options with "no grind" in mind, like fixed levels and/or some turn count. But for me this would be optional, not forced on main game.
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Old November 12, 2013, 16:53   #16
Derakon
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And also, just being on level 98 means that you must kill Sauron on the next level and having killed Sauron you will have to kill Morgoth on the level after that, right? Since you cannot replay any level, ever.
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionmaruu
I would not like angband as much as I do if I could not play it the way we can play now(be it grinding or not grinding).

But I can understand the will to make birth options with "no grind" in mind, like fixed levels and/or some turn count. But for me this would be optional, not forced on main game.
I think one of the reasons why forced-descent is popular with the devs is that they have to balance the game against something, and it becomes impossible to e.g. generate statistics of how common items are / ought to be when the player is allowed to play for an arbitrarily long time.

For my own part, I appreciate the fact that I'm not allowed to play for an arbitrarily long time. Once I get to the bottom, that's it, I have to take on Sauron and Morgoth whether or not I feel ready. That makes things more interesting for me because the end becomes a less certain thing. However, I can appreciate that other players would not want to proceed until they feel ready, even if that means grinding for (say) 40 Potions of Life first...
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Old November 12, 2013, 18:37   #17
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
For my own part, I appreciate the fact that I'm not allowed to play for an arbitrarily long time. Once I get to the bottom, that's it, I have to take on Sauron and Morgoth whether or not I feel ready. That makes things more interesting for me because the end becomes a less certain thing. However, I can appreciate that other players would not want to proceed until they feel ready, even if that means grinding for (say) 40 Potions of Life first...
I am totally against the idea of not being allowed to play at the speed you like. However, there is a kind of built-in safeguard against excessive grinding in that it would be REALLY dangerous to accrue 40 Potions of Life (at least without killing Morgoth first). Has anyone ever managed that?
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Old November 12, 2013, 18:46   #18
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I am totally against the idea of not being allowed to play at the speed you like. However, there is a kind of built-in safeguard against excessive grinding in that it would be REALLY dangerous to accrue 40 Potions of Life (at least without killing Morgoth first). Has anyone ever managed that?
That was intended to be hyperbolic; I'm not aware of anyone getting anywhere near that many. However, I have seen people posting dumps with 15-20 potions of *Healing* post-Morgoth, which is still pretty excessive.
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Old November 12, 2013, 22:46   #19
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I think the unstated compromise is:
1) Make the game be no-grinding, balance it around no-grinding, etc
2) Put in a birth option for no-grinding to be turned back off (previous versions of Angband) for those who want to play the game that way
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Old November 13, 2013, 02:29   #20
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Make the game be no-grinding, balance it around no-grinding, etc
What is the definition of "no grinding" ? Does it mean that resourses are limited, no matter what player do. If so I would call it "ultra grinding", because player will want to get every single item possible.
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