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Old July 5, 2011, 02:52   #11
CunningGabe
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Originally Posted by Max Stats View Post
I saw your pull request with your new mimic code. From the description, it looks great and seems to make mimics behave more like they are expected to from most gaming lore. I wanted to make one suggestion. I would like there to be at least a slight possibility of noticing a mimic before actually getting close enough for it to attack you. I would suggest tying the distance from which the character gets a chance to notice, as well as the chance of success, to the Perception skill. Maybe Rogues should get a tiny extra boost as well, unless the fact that they get the highest Perception skill to begin with seems to be enough of a bonus.

I like this because it gives value to a skill that currently has next to none. I also like the fact that this way characters aren't completely at the mercy of mimics. Unless I am mistaken, the only way to notice one as it stands is to either walk into it and get attacked or get lucky/guess right and hit it with a ranged attack. If you want to balance this out, the mimic's free attack upon failure to notice could be made tougher (perhaps bypassing AC reduction and/or giving possibility to stun).

Incidentally, how does the new code handle searching next to a chest mimic? It says that opening one triggers the attack. I'm thinking searching should have some possibility of triggering the attack, but also some possibility of the character noticing it is a mimic (with the chance of this tied to the Searching skill). Just imagine the character standing and looking very carefully at the chest. Possibly the mimic sees an opening and attacks, or possibly the character spots something suspicious and pulls back.

Anyway, I think the code is a great improvement as it stands, no matter what else is done.
I'm glad you like the new mimics! I like your ideas -- I think it makes sense to give players a Perception roll to discover mimics (something like the traps roll). And I think you're right that searching should either discover or disturb a mimic. I'll work on adding these.

I'd love to hear any and all other mimic ideas -- including ideas for new mimics or lurkers. I'm hoping to add some new ones in 3.4.0.
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Old July 5, 2011, 03:04   #12
Max Stats
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Originally Posted by CunningGabe View Post
I'm glad you like the new mimics!
I'm glad to report that the very first mimic I encountered under the new code was inadvertently outed by the splash effect from an Orb of Draining. Take that!

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Originally Posted by CunningGabe View Post
I like your ideas -- I think it makes sense to give players a Perception roll to discover mimics (something like the traps roll). And I think you're right that searching should either discover or disturb a mimic. I'll work on adding these.
Cool. Looking forward to it.
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Old July 5, 2011, 03:06   #13
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Originally Posted by CunningGabe View Post
I'm glad you like the new mimics! I like your ideas -- I think it makes sense to give players a Perception roll to discover mimics (something like the traps roll). And I think you're right that searching should either discover or disturb a mimic. I'll work on adding these.

I'd love to hear any and all other mimic ideas -- including ideas for new mimics or lurkers. I'm hoping to add some new ones in 3.4.0.
One comment--I like the idea of a character's search score giving a one-time chance to discover the mimic, but I don't like the idea of making an explicit search command discover the mimic.

The reason for this is that it might create an optimal type of play where the player is constantly searching for mimics, since there's no other way to detect them. I'd rather not "encourage" a such a strategy.

I have similar views on detection, searching, traps, secret doors and such which I will hold off on expounding until 3.3 is out. They may be too variantish... we'll have to see.
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Old July 5, 2011, 03:49   #14
CunningGabe
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One comment--I like the idea of a character's search score giving a one-time chance to discover the mimic, but I don't like the idea of making an explicit search command discover the mimic.

The reason for this is that it might create an optimal type of play where the player is constantly searching for mimics, since there's no other way to detect them. I'd rather not "encourage" a such a strategy.

I have similar views on detection, searching, traps, secret doors and such which I will hold off on expounding until 3.3 is out. They may be too variantish... we'll have to see.
That's a good point, but there are already easy, safe ways to detect mimics -- for example, you can fire an arrow at a suspected mimic. (Or zap an attack wand, cast a spell, etc.)
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Old July 5, 2011, 14:13   #15
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That's a good point, but there are already easy, safe ways to detect mimics -- for example, you can fire an arrow at a suspected mimic. (Or zap an attack wand, cast a spell, etc.)
Furthermore, this is already my preferred way of dealing with mimics. I carry around spikes in the early levels just to throw them at copper coins. Should this tactic be encouraged?
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Old July 5, 2011, 14:32   #16
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Furthermore, this is already my preferred way of dealing with mimics. I carry around spikes in the early levels just to throw them at copper coins. Should this tactic be encouraged?
If your point is that it becomes tedious to do this all the time, then I do not have a problem with it. Mimics are harmless enough that I can't see that tactic being 'optimal', leading to many people adopting it. On the other hand I'd like to see mimics become tougher, so getting surprised by them at the wrong moment would mean something.
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Old July 5, 2011, 17:30   #17
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Mimics seem pretty common in Roguelikes, here are some IMHO interesting things Mimics can do in other games:

The Mimics in Crawl can teleport away if they are badly hurt and re-mimic as a different item, so you don't know what they will look like anymore.

In ADoM when mimics reveal themselves they become green 'm's. They also have a chance of paralyzing you, making meleeing them very dangerous. The worst mimics, Mimic Hiveminds, can also summon *more* mimics.

The Crawl method makes mimics dangerous more than once, and makes the player sweat a bit if one gets away, since the player no longer knows what the mimic looks like. Combining that with the ADOM paralyzing attacks might be too harsh, however. Then again, with paralyzing attacks being less of an instakill now it might not be.

I do like the idea of a deep mimic that can summon other mimics, it makes running into one a hairy situation.
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Old July 5, 2011, 17:44   #18
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Then again, with paralyzing attacks being less of an instakill now it might not be.
Since the change to make paralysis attacks non-cumulative, I've had one character survive getting paralyzed when there was an awake monster in the area. I've probably lost at least ten to lacking free action, since I'm a) terrible about remembering who can paralyze, and b) unwilling to postpone diving just so I can get some gear with FA.

In short, paralysis may be less of an instakill than it used to be, but that's because we reduced it from a briefcase nuke to a grenade.
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Old July 5, 2011, 19:13   #19
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Originally Posted by EpicMan View Post
Mimics seem pretty common in Roguelikes, here are some IMHO interesting things Mimics can do in other games:

The Mimics in Crawl can teleport away if they are badly hurt and re-mimic as a different item, so you don't know what they will look like anymore.

In ADoM when mimics reveal themselves they become green 'm's. They also have a chance of paralyzing you, making meleeing them very dangerous. The worst mimics, Mimic Hiveminds, can also summon *more* mimics.

The Crawl method makes mimics dangerous more than once, and makes the player sweat a bit if one gets away, since the player no longer knows what the mimic looks like. Combining that with the ADOM paralyzing attacks might be too harsh, however. Then again, with paralyzing attacks being less of an instakill now it might not be.

I do like the idea of a deep mimic that can summon other mimics, it makes running into one a hairy situation.
This feels so much like Sangband, it hurts.
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Old July 5, 2011, 21:39   #20
Max Stats
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The worst mimics, Mimic Hiveminds, can also summon *more* mimics.
Something like this would be a chest mimic containing smaller mimics, or just random small monsters.
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