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Old June 27, 2011, 03:44   #1
bulian
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3.3 RC: squelch/ignore functionality + lvl feelings

I played a few hours on the nightlies today and found a couple bugs:

- What happened to the destroy command 'k'? It has been replaced by "ignore" which has seemingly weird functionality. I accidentally hit the "ignore all" on some !CSW I had while trying to destroy something on the ground. The !CSW started acting as if squelched unless in "unignore mode" - going back to regular mode causes them to disappear from inventory, though they are not toggled under the squelch menu or the "autoinscription menu" as being squelched. If "ignore" has the same functionality as squelch they should be linked to the submenu. To undo this I had to go into unignore mode ('shift + k') and 'destroy' the stack again ('k'). What was wrong with destroy? Does "ignore" on an unidentified artifact cause the artifact to remain visible? It seems to have no effect on identified artifacts. Personally not a fan of this change.

- Level feelings on the nightlies are not dependent on number of steps taken before changing levels. e.g. No "looks like any other level" messages or penalty to divers or stair scummers.

- Got the crash bug as well after killing something. Forget what though. Already had the phial if that helps.
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Old June 27, 2011, 06:19   #2
Netbrian
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Originally Posted by bulian View Post
Level feelings on the nightlies are not dependent on number of steps taken before changing levels. e.g. No "looks like any other level" messages or penalty to divers or stair scummers..
I'm a fan of the small chance of having the stairway collapse behind you when going up as the solution to this problem, rather than putting the delay back in.

They probably shouldn't collapse in the town though.
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Old June 27, 2011, 06:51   #3
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Originally Posted by Netbrian View Post
I'm a fan of the small chance of having the stairway collapse behind you when going up as the solution to this problem, rather than putting the delay back in.
Just play with disconnected stairs if you want this. I think playing with them connected is pretty much exploitative.
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Old June 27, 2011, 09:32   #4
jens
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Originally Posted by bulian View Post
- Level feelings on the nightlies are not dependent on number of steps taken before changing levels. e.g. No "looks like any other level" messages or penalty to divers or stair scummers.
It's been this way for a while now, I mentioned it maybe a month ago or so when they were first changed. Then I realised that they needed a lot of testing, so I played a bunch of games where I did a lot of stairscumming just to see the variation in the feelings. They have now been adjusted 3 times since then, but I've not reported it since, because I still think they need extra supervision ;-) But I do hope the plan is to act against stair scumming.
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Old June 27, 2011, 12:19   #5
Nomad
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I know it's open to abuse, but I actually like the lack of delay; it encourages me to dive through boring levels quickly if I find a set of stairs right away, instead of hanging around for artificial reasons.

I'd like it if, rather than working by how long you stay, the game could somehow distinguish between taking stairs to a new level vs going back on yourself. Three possible suggestions:

1. Store the coordinates of the staircase where the player first entered the level. If they exit in the same place, no level feeling.

2. Track whether the player entered by an up or down staircase. If the next staircase they take is going in the same direction, give them a level feeling; if they reverse directions, no feeling.

3. The simplest and cruelest method: only give level feelings when the player descends to a new maximum depth. (Depending on how cruel you're willing to be, you could always fudge in an exception for returning to max depth via Word of Recall.)
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Old June 27, 2011, 12:27   #6
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Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
I know it's open to abuse, but I actually like the lack of delay; it encourages me to dive through boring levels quickly if I find a set of stairs right away, instead of hanging around for artificial reasons.

I'd like it if, rather than working by how long you stay, the game could somehow distinguish between taking stairs to a new level vs going back on yourself. Three possible suggestions:

1. Store the coordinates of the staircase where the player first entered the level. If they exit in the same place, no level feeling.

2. Track whether the player entered by an up or down staircase. If the next staircase they take is going in the same direction, give them a level feeling; if they reverse directions, no feeling.

3. The simplest and cruelest method: only give level feelings when the player descends to a new maximum depth. (Depending on how cruel you're willing to be, you could always fudge in an exception for returning to max depth via Word of Recall.)
I like this suggestion. It always bugged me when diving or something and went quickly on to the next level and not getting a feeling.

I like 1) the best. I'd like to make one modification though: if you take the same stair you only get a feeling if you have been on the level for 1000 turns. Actually what I want is to ensure that if I have explored quite a bit of the current level and now I want to move on, but I haven't found a down stair, or I'm not ready to go down, and I happen to go up by my old stair I should not be penalised.
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Old June 27, 2011, 14:37   #7
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Originally Posted by Napsterbater View Post
Just play with disconnected stairs if you want this. I think playing with them connected is pretty much exploitative.
Er, yes, if you stairscum it's exploitative. If you don't, then it's not, and branding everyone who plays with connected stairs (most Angband players) as an exploiter is a little extreme and rude. Connected stairs have logical benefits other than scumming - descending into a level, immediately seeing Kavlax, and scampering back up, for example. I don't see how that's exploitative, but you lose that with disconnected stairs.
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Old June 27, 2011, 16:59   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jens View Post
I like this suggestion. It always bugged me when diving or something and went quickly on to the next level and not getting a feeling.

I like 1) the best. I'd like to make one modification though: if you take the same stair you only get a feeling if you have been on the level for 1000 turns. Actually what I want is to ensure that if I have explored quite a bit of the current level and now I want to move on, but I haven't found a down stair, or I'm not ready to go down, and I happen to go up by my old stair I should not be penalised.
We don't need to reinvent the wheel here. Take a look at NPP's source code - there is a work of genius implemented there, involving randomly-distributed special tiles - a level feeling is triggered after @ walks over a certain number of these. No mixing, no messing - a truly random delay which is unavoidable by any form of scumming.
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Old June 27, 2011, 18:29   #9
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We don't need to reinvent the wheel here. Take a look at NPP's source code - there is a work of genius implemented there, involving randomly-distributed special tiles - a level feeling is triggered after @ walks over a certain number of these. No mixing, no messing - a truly random delay which is unavoidable by any form of scumming.
Can I assume that rooms are treated collectively as a single tile? So you don't have to walk all over a whole room to make sure you hit the right spot?

Caverns could be a problem, unless tiles are several squares in diameter, otherwise you could easily walk around a lot but unknowingly walk around the special tiles.
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Old June 27, 2011, 18:40   #10
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It's a stochastic process: a large number of random tiles are chosen, and only a comparatively small number need to be stepped on to enable the next level feeling. The game isn't trying to directly measure how much of the level you explored; it's using an analogue that comes close.

You could probably game the system by thoroughly "exploring" a small portion of the level to hit all of the chosen tiles in that region, but why bother?
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