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Old June 27, 2011, 19:47   #11
Napsterbater
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Originally Posted by Jazerus View Post
Er, yes, if you stairscum it's exploitative. If you don't, then it's not, and branding everyone who plays with connected stairs (most Angband players) as an exploiter is a little extreme and rude. Connected stairs have logical benefits other than scumming - descending into a level, immediately seeing Kavlax, and scampering back up, for example. I don't see how that's exploitative, but you lose that with disconnected stairs.
I think if you go down stairs and end up in a pack of hounds or next to Kavlax or whatever, you should rely on the stack of escapes you already have rather than getting a free "Create Stairs" cast every time you go up or down a staircase.

It only took so many times where I'd go down stairs, see bunch of monsters, go back up stairs, see a bunch of monsters, go back down stairs, to realize I was being a scaredy cat and to actually evaluate the survivability of each situation and to know what escapes I had and their utility and all of that. Playing connected is a crutch.
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Old June 27, 2011, 19:55   #12
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Let's not let this thread turn into another debate about the merits of connected stairs. Plenty of those already exits.
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Old June 27, 2011, 19:57   #13
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So is it also a crutch to play variants that explicitly try to start the player out in a cul-de-sac without any monsters nearby?

Mobility and knowledge are big parts of survival in Angband, and starting out a new level with zero knowledge (beyond what you can see in LOS) and zero non-random mobility is inherently, deeply dangerous. Should the player be required to roll the dice each time they take a staircase?
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Old June 27, 2011, 20:06   #14
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So is it also a crutch to play variants that explicitly try to start the player out in a cul-de-sac without any monsters nearby?

Mobility and knowledge are big parts of survival in Angband, and starting out a new level with zero knowledge (beyond what you can see in LOS) and zero non-random mobility is inherently, deeply dangerous. Should the player be required to roll the dice each time they take a staircase?
One of my last deaths was due to out-of-sight nexus hounds after I'd used a tlev to escape. Hit one button and I'm looking at the death screen. So I know what you mean. But the dungeon is dangerous and I wouldn't want it any other way. I play fine with rolling the dice, I know Eddie does, too, because it was his advice I took when I turned it off.

If off-screen breathers is what you're worried about, playing connected isn't going to help, there, either. The first thing you're doing is detecting, right? Either you're going to die next turn or you aren't, and if you are, you're playing too dangerously and connected won't help anyway, and if you aren't, you've got all the time in the world to detect and escape if you need to.
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Old June 28, 2011, 04:18   #15
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Playing with dis-connected stairs will make you a better player. Regardless of how you view it, it's one less crutch, and that will make you stronger in the long run. Really, with the excessive number of staircases on any given level, I mean they're not that hard to find (except in Fay), switching to disconnected stairs is hardly a change at all... unless you really need the crutch.

That NPP stuff* is genius. I wish I'd thought of it. It needs more wide spread application, and not just in the prevention of scumming (as I envision it). I always thought that you should be given some sort of minor award for exploration. If nothing else it would interesting to see what % of each level is explored, at least I think it would be.

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NPP Stuff* : Take a look at NPP's source code - there is a work of genius implemented there, involving randomly-distributed special tiles - a level feeling is triggered after @ walks over a certain number of these. No mixing, no messing - a truly random delay which is unavoidable by any form of scumming.


Edited for clarity.
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Old June 28, 2011, 05:20   #16
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That NPP stuff is genius. I wish I'd thought of it. It needs more wide spread application, and not just in the prevention of scumming (as I envision it). I always thought that you should be given some sort of minor award for exploration. If nothing else it would interesting to see what % of each level is explored, at least I think it would be.
What NPP stuff are you referring to?

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Old June 28, 2011, 09:22   #17
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What NPP stuff are you referring to?

A.
Did you even read the thread, Antoine?

(Hint - post 8)
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Old June 28, 2011, 09:56   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzkill View Post
That NPP stuff is genius. I wish I'd thought of it. It needs more wide spread application, and not just in the prevention of scumming (as I envision it). I always thought that you should be given some sort of minor award for exploration. If nothing else it would interesting to see what % of each level is explored, at least I think it would be.
To me it has always felt like it must be too high an overload just to avoid stairscumming. But I guess todays computers can handle it... But I like Angband being able to run well on any old machine as well.

In any case I really like the idea of using it for a lot of other stuff that we might think of. I've also wanted an award for exploring, for instance ;-)
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Old June 28, 2011, 10:29   #19
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Did you even read the thread, Antoine?

(Hint - post 8)
No need to shout. I thought it might have been a reference to Derakon's #13 - "variants that explicitly try to start the player out in a cul-de-sac without any monsters nearby" - which NPP does - but wasn't sure, hence the question.

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Old June 28, 2011, 10:33   #20
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No need to shout. I thought it might have been a reference to Derakon's #13 - "variants that explicitly try to start the player out in a cul-de-sac without any monsters nearby" - which NPP does - but wasn't sure, hence the question.

A.
Sorry #jokefail
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