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Old October 6, 2018, 17:49   #11
Grotug
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Welp, I beat the game without ever putting on the PDSM again. Played the whole game as a melee class as I never found a great launcher (best I found was a lorien x3 +19 that I didn't use in favor of an x5 xbow which sustained strength). Found some speed armor that solved my character (rNether).

Did the final fight with an aggravating maul doing about 468 to evil; fight was easier than a warrior with say 550 to evil. I had very good hit die: 940hp in final fight. I had all stats maxed except WIS (and all stats sustained except wis). I had comfortable amount of consumables. The 3 mana heal spell is good for like 75 health when you're really low, which is pretty sweet. I also had to do the final fight with a helmet swap to get more damage+speed and lose telepathy. I had found an amulet of esp that would have been great, but i didn't save it (of course, I saved a *bunch* of other artifacts I never used).

full char dump: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=21995

Final fight youtube video: https://youtu.be/VgSmRlt7XjY

Code:
 [Angband 4.1.2 Character Dump]

 Name   Mogri        Age             31          Self  RB  CB  EB   Best
 Race   Hobbit       Height        2'9"   STR! 18/100  -2  +0 +17 18/***
 Class  Ranger       Weight     4st 2lb   INT! 18/100  +2  +2 +15 18/***
 Title  ***WINNER*** Turns used:          Wis! 18/100  +1  -2  +6 18/150 18/100
 HP     798/940      Game        628443   DEX! 18/100  +3  +1 +10 18/***
 SP     160/385      Standard     77136   CON! 18/100  +2  -1 +15 18/***
                     Resting       6045

 Level                 50    Armor     [55,+149]    Saving Throw    100%
 Cur Exp          7856476                           Stealth       Superb
 Max Exp          7856476    Melee       7d4,+50    Disarm - phys.  100%
 Adv Exp         ********    To-hit       65,+83    Disarm - magic   99%
                             Blows      5.0/turn    Magic Devices    109
 Gold              352872                           Searching       100%
 Burden          169.4 lb    Shoot to-dam    +19    Infravision   150 ft
 Overweight      -10.5 lb    To-hit      105,+90    Speed      23 (x3.3)
 Max Depth   5000' (L100)    Shots        1/turn

 You are one of several children of a Hobbit Warrior.  You are a credit
 to the family.  You have brown eyes, straight black hair, and an
 average complexion.


rAcid:+.....+.++.+! Nexus:..+.+.....+..
rElec:+.+......+..! Nethr:......+......
rFire:.++*.+..+...! Chaos:..++....+....
rCold:..+...+.+..*! Disen:......+......
rPois:..+.+.......! pFear:+.++..+....+.
rLite:+.+...+...... pBlnd:..+...+......
rDark:..++......... pConf:...+.......+.
Sound:.+.+..+...... pStun:.....+.......
Shard:......+.+.... HLife:..+.........+

Regen:...+...++.... Stea.:.+..+..+.....
  ESP:............. Sear.:+..++...+....
Invis:+.+.......... Infra:...++.......+
FrAct:..+.....+.++. Tunn.:.............
Feath:............. Speed:...++.+..+.+!
S.Dig:............. Blows:.............
ImpHP:............. Shots:.............
 Fear:............. Might:.+...........
Aggrv:+............ Light:..+..+.......


  [Character Equipment]

a) the Maul 'Cirith' (7d4) (+7,+21) <+3, +1, +4, +2> (charging)
     Dropped by a Great Wyrm of Law at 4750 feet (level 95)
     
     +3 strength.
     +1 intelligence.
     +4 constitution.
     +2 searching skill.
     Slays undead (powerfully), dragons (powerfully), giants, orcs,
     animals, evil creatures.
     Branded with weak acid.
     Provides resistance to acid, lightning, light.
     Provides protection from fear.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
     Grants the ability to see invisible things.  Aggravates creatures
     nearby.  
     
     When activated, it inflicts damage on evil creatures you can see,
     heals 50 hit points, cures all temporary negative effects and
     grants you protection from evil.
     Takes 382 to 468 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 97.2%
     
     Combat info:
     5.0 blows/round.
     This weapon may benefit from one or more off-weapon brands or
     slays.
     Average damage/round: 477 vs. creatures not resistant to acid, 787
     vs. undead, 787 vs. dragons, 580.5 vs. giants, 580.5 vs. orcs, 477
     vs. animals, 477 vs. evil creatures, and 374 vs. others.
     
b) the Light Crossbow of Belomuros (x5) (+14,+19) <+5, +2> {@2}
     Dropped by Tom the Stone Troll at 3500 feet (level 70)
     
     +5 intelligence.
     +2 stealth.
     +2 shooting power.
     Provides resistance to fire, sound.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
     Sustains strength.
     
c) the Band of Froth (+8,+2) <+2, +4, +5, +1>
     Found lying on the floor in a vault at 4050 feet (level 81)
     
     +2 strength.
     +4 intelligence.
     +5 wisdom.
     +4 dexterity.
     +4 constitution.
     +1 light.
     Provides resistance to lightning, fire, cold, poison, light, dark,
     nexus, chaos.
     Provides protection from fear, blindness.
     Cannot be harmed by lightning.
     Sustains dexterity, constitution.
     Grants the ability to see invisible things.  Prevents paralysis. 
     Sustains your life force.  
     
     When activated, it does bizarre things.
     Takes 639 to 936 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 97.2%
     
d) the Ring of Aereth <+5, +3>
     Dropped by a mature green dragon at 3100 feet (level 62)
     
     +5 constitution.
     +3 searching skill.
     +5 infravision.
     +3 speed.
     It causes your melee attacks to slay undead.
     Provides immunity to fire.
     Provides resistance to dark, sound, chaos.
     Provides protection from fear, confusion.
     Cannot be harmed by lightning.
     Speeds regeneration.  
     
     When activated, it tries to recharge a wand or staff, destroying
     the wand or staff on failure.
     Takes 351 to 429 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 87.9%
     
e) an Amulet of Trickery <+5, +2, +6, +1>
     Found lying on the floor in a vault at 3100 feet (level 62)
     
     +5 dexterity.
     +2 stealth.
     +6 searching skill.
     +6 infravision.
     +1 speed.
     Provides resistance to poison, nexus.
     Sustains dexterity.
     
f) the Star of Nascabil <+2, +3>
     Dropped by Angamait of Umbar at 1600 feet (level 32)
     
     +2 strength.
     +2 intelligence.
     +3 light.
     Provides resistance to fire.
     Provides protection from stunning.
     Cannot be harmed by fire.
     Radius 3 light.
     
     When activated, it maps the area around you.
     Takes 198 to 390 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 97.2%
     
g) the Law Dragon Scale Mail 'Aithir' (-2) [36,+17] <+10>
     Dropped by Ji Indur Dawndeath at 4050 feet (level 81)
     
     +10 speed.
     Provides resistance to acid, cold, light, sound, shards, nether,
     disenchantment.
     Provides protection from fear, blindness.
     
     When aimed, it randomly breathes a cone of sound or shards with
     width 20 degrees, dealing 230 damage at the source.
     Takes 195 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 97.5%
     
h) an Ethereal Cloak of the Magi [0,+20] <+1>
     Dropped by Gothmog, the High Captain of Balrogs at 4750 feet
     (level 95)
     
     +1 intelligence.
     +1 stealth.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
     Sustains intelligence.
     Speeds regeneration.  
     
i) the Small Metal Shield of Erech [5,+11] <+5, +2, +4>
     Dropped by an ethereal dragon at 4600 feet (level 92)
     
     +5 strength.
     +2 intelligence.
     +4 searching skill.
     Provides resistance to acid, fire, cold, shards, chaos.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     Speeds regeneration.  Prevents paralysis.  
     
j) the Iron Crown 'Turgionwe' (+4,+7) [0,+13] <+1, +2, +4>
     Dropped by Gothmog, the High Captain of Balrogs at 4750 feet
     (level 95)
     
     +1 dexterity.
     +2 constitution.
     +4 speed.
     Provides resistance to acid, lightning.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     
k) the Set of Mithril Gauntlets 'Hirin' [6,+17] <+5>
     Conjured forth by magic at 2000 feet (level 40)
     
     +5 strength.
     Provides resistance to nexus.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
     Sustains dexterity.
     Prevents paralysis.  
     
l) the Pair of Mithril Shod Boots of Quent [8,+16] <+1, +5>
     Found lying on the floor in a vault at 4050 feet (level 81)
     
     +1 wisdom.
     +5 speed.
     Provides immunity to cold.
     Provides resistance to acid.
     Provides protection from fear, confusion.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
     Prevents paralysis.  
     




  [Character Inventory]

a) a Book of Magic Spells [Magic for Beginners] {@1!g}
b) a Book of Magic Spells [Conjurings and Tricks] {@2!g}
c) a Book of Magic Spells [Incantations and Illusions] {@3!g}
d) a Book of Magic Spells [Sorcery and Evocations] {@4!g}
e) a Book of Magic Spells [Resistances of Scarabtarices] {@5!g}
     Cannot be harmed by fire.
     
f) a Book of Magic Spells [Mordenkainen's Escapes] {@7!g}
     Cannot be harmed by fire.
     
g) a Book of Magic Spells [Tenser's Transformations] {@8!g}
     Cannot be harmed by fire.
     
h) 37 Potions of Cure Critical Wounds
i) 7 Potions of Healing
j) 8 Potions of *Healing*
     It can be thrown at creatures with damaging effect.
     
k) 5 Potions of Life
     It can be thrown at creatures with damaging effect.
     
l) 14 Potions of Restore Mana
m) 3 Potions of Enlightenment
n) 12 Scrolls of Phase Door
o) 25 Scrolls of Teleportation {!r}
p) 4 Scrolls of Banishment
q) 6 Scrolls of Mass Banishment {!r!d!k!v}
r) the Golden Crown of Aerdoron [0,+19] <+4, +3, +1>
     Taken from a chest found at 2650 feet (level 53)
     
     +4 intelligence.
     +3 wisdom.
     +1 light.
     Provides resistance to poison, dark.
     Provides protection from fear.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     Grants telepathy.  Prevents paralysis.  
     




  [Character Quiver]

0) 13 Bolts of Acid (1d5) (+9,+19)
     Branded with acid.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     
     Combat info:
     Hits targets up to 160 feet away.
     Average damage/round: 354.2 vs. creatures not resistant to acid,
     and 221.4 vs. others.
     25% chance of breaking upon contact.
     
1) 12 Seeker Bolts (4d5) (+7,+8)
     Combat info:
     Hits targets up to 160 feet away.
     Average damage/round: 210.6.
     25% chance of breaking upon contact.
     
2) a Seeker Bolt of Venom (4d5) (+11,+12)
     Branded with poison.
     
     Combat info:
     Hits targets up to 160 feet away.
     Average damage/round: 375 vs. creatures not resistant to poison,
     and 234.3 vs. others.
     25% chance of breaking upon contact.
     
3) 4 Mithril Bolts of Flame (3d5) (+9,+10)
     Branded with fire.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     
     Combat info:
     Hits targets up to 160 feet away.
     Average damage/round: 328.3 vs. creatures not resistant to fire,
     and 205.2 vs. others.
     25% chance of breaking upon contact.
     
4) 15 Mithril Bolts of Flame (3d5) (+10,+12)
     Branded with fire.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     
     Combat info:
     Hits targets up to 160 feet away.
     Average damage/round: 345.6 vs. creatures not resistant to fire,
     and 216 vs. others.
     25% chance of breaking upon contact.
     
5) 6 Mithril Bolts of Frost (3d5) (+11,+12)
     Branded with cold.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     
     Combat info:
     Hits targets up to 160 feet away.
     Average damage/round: 348.8 vs. creatures not resistant to cold,
     and 218 vs. others.
     25% chance of breaking upon contact.
     
6) 16 Mithril Bolts of Frost (3d5) (+12,+12)
     Branded with cold.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     
     Combat info:
     Hits targets up to 160 feet away.
     Average damage/round: 348.8 vs. creatures not resistant to cold,
     and 218 vs. others.
     25% chance of breaking upon contact.
     
7) 6 Mithril Bolts of Flame (3d5) (+12,+12)
     Branded with fire.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     
     Combat info:
     Hits targets up to 160 feet away.
     Average damage/round: 348.8 vs. creatures not resistant to fire,
     and 218 vs. others.
     25% chance of breaking upon contact.
     
8) 14 Mithril Bolts of Flame (3d5) (+13,+12)
     Branded with fire.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     
     Combat info:
     Hits targets up to 160 feet away.
     Average damage/round: 348.8 vs. creatures not resistant to fire,
     and 218 vs. others.
     25% chance of breaking upon contact.
     
9) 10 Mithril Shots of Wounding (2d4) (+27,+19)
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Last edited by Grotug; October 6, 2018 at 18:35.
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Old October 6, 2018, 19:37   #12
Pete Mack
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That character is another exhibit in "why randarts are broken." Every stat except one is at 18/220 on that character! And not just by a little: +17/+15/+15/+10/+6 is insane. And every resist is covered, all but one covered more than once. And all important abilities are covered. Of course it was a ln easy win!
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Old October 7, 2018, 15:52   #13
Grotug
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Here is a YT video demonstrating the fun of playing Half Troll for his regenerative abilities. I'm playing a HT Ranger with +6 to STR/DEX/INT and +2 CON.

https://youtu.be/dIeI2P6HKY4#t=20m37s
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Old October 7, 2018, 18:28   #14
Sky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
That character is another exhibit in "why randarts are broken." Every stat except one is at 18/220 on that character! And not just by a little: +17/+15/+15/+10/+6 is insane. And every resist is covered, all but one covered more than once. And all important abilities are covered. Of course it was a ln easy win!
Thats the way it's supposed to be.

I dont get this glorification of unfit characters; hey lets all only play gnome mages ironman egoless without rPoison BECAUSE THATS WHAT REAL MEN DO.

No;you are *supposed* to get powerful, to cover your resists, to max your stats, to stash conaumables.

Maybe, you won't max all stats. Sometimes they are nearly maxed, sometimes they are easily maxed, and sometimes the entire randart set has TWO ESP items. Or rNexus is missing alltogether.

The stock set has ringil/cubragol/fingolfin at +45 speed (easy to reach +70 with two ros) pStun + all resists. Not much difference. Or any difference, really. Somtimes randarts throw out random results. Im pretty sure thats where the name RANDOM ARTIFACTS comes from.
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Old October 7, 2018, 19:46   #15
Derakon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky View Post
Thats the way it's supposed to be.
This is a subjective issue. Some players want to become "perfectly powerful" in every game, even though that removes a source of challenge. Others don't. The game designers have to make a decision at some point in terms of how powerful you get without grinding, and that's what we argue about.

While this is, strictly speaking, true:
Quote:
The stock set has ringil/cubragol/fingolfin at +45 speed (easy to reach +70 with two ros) pStun + all resists.
it's only true if you're willing to grind until you find all of those items. The vast majority of standart games that are not grind-heavy will find at most one of those artifacts, and you'd have to spend a fairly substantial amount of time grinding to get all three.

Should a randart game in which you do not grind yield an equivalent level of power as a standart game in which you do grind?
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Old October 7, 2018, 21:19   #16
Pete Mack
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Indeed. In a game with 77K player turns, you might find Cubragol. You would be exceedingly lucky to find Ringil or Feanor (I have only found each of them once, and certainly never in the same game.)

And you arent going to dual wield Rings of Speed in any case. You will reserve at least one hand for either damage or stats, depending on class and race. No way will you have a buffer of +15 in 3 stats (and 10 in a 4th) to give some up for extra damage or speed.
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Old October 8, 2018, 06:26   #17
Pete Mack
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Followup:
Sky: I am not comparing randarts to artifactless (or egoless) play, ironman or otherwise. I am comparing them to standard artifacts, aka "default vanilla angband." There is *no way* you would get an uber-powerful character in 77K player turns, even with a stat-friendly combination like hobbit ranger. I am running a high-elf rogue right now as a comparison. Yes, he is pretty powerful, but he has essentially no sustains. I am seriously considering taking on Morgoth with an amulet of sustainance. (I am playing on android, v 3.4, so I can't just obliterate M so easily with wands of annihilation.)
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Old October 8, 2018, 14:01   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Should a randart game in which you do not grind yield an equivalent level of power as a standart game in which you do grind?
No .. it should yeld a statistical equivalent. And they do. Or rather they dont but that is actually a-ok.

Explanation? Explanation.

The standart set is designed by hand. It features some of the most powerful items youll ever see, but these are the rarest, highest power value items. They drop less frequently.

Randarts do not do that, they randomize and as such you will have uneven distribution.

The standart set follows the reasoning "if an object is X powerful, it should have at least Y set of powers".

Thus every arti above so much power has Fa, 4 base resists, and incremental bonuses. They have been artificially balanced.

Randarts otoh might have an object that is economical in power value, and bad on its own, but useful when slotted into a set. So the Helm of Derakon +7 STR +7 Spd ESP is valued LESS by the system than the Helm of Nick +2 STR +2 WIS +1 Light rLight rFire rCold rLightn rAcid Fa pBlind A:bolt useless damage +2 Spd ESP.

The player values items differently ofc. I dont need most of the stuff im "paying" for in rarity due to power value.

Now, 77k is .. low. I would say it's luck and good play style that got him that many artifacts. But the problem isnt that the randart system is unbalanced, it's the STANDART that is unbalanced.
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Old October 8, 2018, 16:27   #19
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Who needs sustains? Thats what you've got those !life for. 4-5 is usually enough by far unless your dpr is really poor
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Old October 8, 2018, 20:01   #20
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Thralbee--
Sure. But I am using Elessar now, entirely for its activation. I don't expect to need it vs. M with 40 *heal* potions
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