Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old September 12, 2009, 04:56   #1
Sirridan
Knight
 
Sirridan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 560
Sirridan is on a distinguished road
Combat kinda sucks

So tomorrow, I start working out and hopefully getting the start of the level feeling implementations I want to do done, hopefully the folks here like them. I'll post a whole thread on what I'm planning, and even if it isn't what people want, it will provide a thread for some discussion on more development side of the issue.

Anyway, combat kinda sucks, and I think there could be a few ways we could make it better. For one, the big way to get high melee damage is to get a weapon that gets as many blows as possible, then pump up +damage. So in many cases, find a great heavy weapon like a lance (Defender) early on sucks, because it's useful, but does crap damage. (1 blow at 30 damage, versus 4 at 16... with a whip or something, due to +damage)

Another thing is the weird kinda breakpoints with dex and such, like jumping from 18/10 dex to 18/49 has NO EFFECT on attacks, but going up from 18/49 to 18/50 can make your attacks jump up, I feel this should be more gradual, because as is, it may favor not taking substantial upgrades due to loss of damage. (Because you lose dex or maybe str)

But honestly I think the worst problem is +damage and light weapons, however it would be a bit unfair to tone them down now since the light+Damage combo is so ingrained. I was thinking of buffing the effect of +damage for heavier weapons, so that in the end a weapon with similar pluses will do the same overall damage, so those heavier weapons aren't useless. Of course weapons like blades of chaos or maces of disruption would do better, since they are rarer, and some light artifact weapons will outperform heaviers.

And as is, some heavy weapons can hit 5-6 blows, and would grossly inflate the damage of an increased +damage/weight. So in addition to this buff, I would change the extra attacks formula so that heavier weapons would get fewer blows, however in the end overall damage would remain the same.

So in a nutshell, I'm wanting to see a change that does this:

1. Early weapon choices should not be solely dependant on weight.
2. End game damage from heavy and light weapons should be the same as it is now.
3. +damage has the same effect on weapons on average. If a +10 ring of damage adds 50 to your dagger attacks overall, it should add 50 to your mace, even if you get only 5 attacks with dagger and 3 with the mace.

Any thoughts?
Sirridan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 12, 2009, 05:29   #2
Pete Mack
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,780
Donated: $40
Pete Mack is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirridan View Post
So in a nutshell, I'm wanting to see a change that does this:

1. Early weapon choices should not be solely dependant on weight.
2. End game damage from heavy and light weapons should be the same as it is now.
3. +damage has the same effect on weapons on average. If a +10 ring of damage adds 50 to your dagger attacks overall, it should add 50 to your mace, even if you get only 5 attacks with dagger and 3 with the mace.

Any thoughts?
Or, you can try playing with O-style combat...
Before implementing this, do try a few games of O. (Use Warrior with Fury to start.)
Pete Mack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 12, 2009, 05:42   #3
Djabanete
Knight
 
Djabanete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 545
Djabanete is on a distinguished road
I've always found the way Angband encourages light weapons in the beginning and heavy, big-dice weapons in the late game (for the slays and brands) kind of endearing --- but then, I've never been much of a stickler for realism when it comes to gaming.

However, it seems clear to me that dividing blows decimally would be a very favorable change, and would go a long way towards alleviating the problem of the annoying breakpoints, which I do _not_ find endearing whatsoever.
Djabanete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 12, 2009, 05:45   #4
Sirridan
Knight
 
Sirridan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 560
Sirridan is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
Or, you can try playing with O-style combat...
Before implementing this, do try a few games of O. (Use Warrior with Fury to start.)
Good idea, if something good has been done, why reinvent the wheel?
Sirridan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 12, 2009, 11:40   #5
Matthias
Adept
 
Matthias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Germany
Age: 37
Posts: 201
Matthias is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to Matthias
In the end, the warrior will select the weapon that does the most damage in the current situation (assuming equal other stats). With this in mind, no combat system sucks and none is better than the other.

Quote:
So in many cases, find a great heavy weapon like a lance (Defender) early on sucks, because it's useful, but does crap damage. (1 blow at 30 damage, versus 4 at 16... with a whip or something, due to +damage)
And in combat systems that prefer heavy weapons you'll find a perfectly fine light weapon that will then suck (and not just early on) because of the heavy weapon bias.
Matthias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 12, 2009, 15:05   #6
fizzix
Prophet
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, US
Posts: 3,020
fizzix is on a distinguished road
A couple things.

I don't think the combat system sucks, but it can be improved quite a bit.

Fractional blows would be a big improvement because it gets rid of the arbitrary break points. I think V is already headed in that direction.

Lighter weapon bias isn't that big of a deal IMO, but if you wanted to give some benefit to heavier weapons in the early rounds, I'd do it in a different way. A possible approach would to be allowing the player to stun monsters (or even knock them unconscious) in a way that's dependent on weapon weight.

The biggest problem I have is fixing slays and brands on weapons vs. missiles. Missile brands/slays are overpowered and weapon ones are way underpowered, except for heavy weapons with extra dice. I'd make the slay damage multiplier dependent on total weapon damage (not just the dice). Not sure whether to include jewelry, armor, or strength multipliers yet. Then, the total multipliers for the slays or the brands should all be reduced, to weaken missile slays just a tad, and keep weapon ones reasonable. Oh, and allow stacking. So if I have a ring of flames and a weapon of slay orc, I should both burn and smite that poor poor uruk.

Right now a dagger of slay orc adds like 2 points damage. What's the point?
fizzix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 12, 2009, 15:18   #7
Pete Mack
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,780
Donated: $40
Pete Mack is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Anyway, combat kinda sucks, and I think there could be a few ways we could make it better. For one, the big way to get high melee damage is to get a weapon that gets as many blows as possible, then pump up +damage. So in many cases, find a great heavy weapon like a lance (Defender) early on sucks, because it's useful, but does crap damage. (1 blow at 30 damage, versus 4 at 16... with a whip or something, due to +damage)
Also note: a Defender is not intended to be used for damage. (Hence the name.) They make great swap weapons (for stealth and resistances), and do fine for non-melee characters, but they were never intended to do much damage. If anything, they are stronger now than they were in the past, as you can use a branding ring to up the dice to something respectable.

The whole light-weapon heavy-weapon argument actually doesn't interest me much. Some few weapons are always going to be "the best", rendering all other weapons junk. In V, that essentially all heavy weapons are junk in the early game, and essentially all light weapons are junk in the end game. In O, it means that essentially all light weapons are junk for the entire game. It also means that luck plays a much bigger role, because there's no falling back on a Dagger(+9,+9) if your luck fails you.
Pete Mack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 12, 2009, 16:21   #8
buzzkill
Prophet
 
buzzkill's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 2,939
Donated: $8
buzzkill is on a distinguished road
Haven't really put much thought into the whole missile vs. melee thingy but, it would make some sense to me if the launcher carried the pluses (to hit, to damage) and the missile carried the dice and the slays, but no pluses. If that loss need be compensated, maybe a pair of gloves, or a helm, specific to further improving archery could be introduced. God knows there are some useless artifact gloves that could use a tweak.
__________________
www.mediafire.com/buzzkill - Get your 32x32 tiles here. UT32 now compatible Ironband and Quickband 9/6/2012.
My banding life on Buzzkill's ladder.
buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13, 2009, 12:13   #9
Iniquity
Rookie
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3
Iniquity is on a distinguished road
At the moment you can only realistically enchant a weapon to say +10 damage independent of the weapon weight. Why not make the algorithm for failure of enchant dam spells/scrolls take into account weapon weight? So you can enchant your lance to +25 or something but your whip to only +8.
Iniquity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13, 2009, 21:39   #10
Hariolor
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 289
Hariolor is on a distinguished road
Why not move away from the D&D-style weapon damage scale, period.

The fact that the most wicked weapons are what, scythes of slicing at something like 8d6? That's an unbranded, unplussed average of a whopping 28 damage!

Maybe this would screw up the entire balance of the game (ok, definitely, not maybe) - but why not make the scale on weapons much broader. A 1d4 dagger and a 3d4 bastard sword are just not that statistically different, though the sword is realistically capable of dealing far more damage. So why not make the bastard sword 10d4, instead of 3d4. I'd think it's at least ten times more damaging to get hit with one...

but doing this would mean rebalancing EVERYTHING, and is probably not worth it.
Hariolor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Combat System Sirridan Development 9 July 14, 2009 07:11
OAnband Combat Narvius Variants 2 July 2, 2008 12:28
[FA, O?] Combat Ghen Variants 1 July 16, 2007 19:06


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:46.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.