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Old January 10, 2017, 04:19   #11
PowerDiver
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This is an old old discussion. FWIW I think the idea of monster memory is stupid, and have advocated for telling the players the rules of the game [i.e. full monster info] for more than a decade.
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Old January 10, 2017, 04:31   #12
Avenger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
If you're playing Angband 4.0.x, it's easier than that. If you copy monster.txt, rename it lore.txt and stick it in your user directory, you will get full monster lore.
Why not just borrow from TomeNET(and perhaps other variants, but this is the one I'm familiar with) and actually include a full monster lookup system ingame? Sure, that's an easy solution, but it could be even easier - and more accessible - and since there's already a way to do it as you described above, it should be a short step to actually including it organically.
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Old January 10, 2017, 05:23   #13
Carnivean
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Originally Posted by Avenger View Post
Why not just ... include a full monster lookup system ingame?
Nick's solution allows players to do that optionally. Once you copy monster.txt to lore.txt you can look up the full information for all monsters. It also allows the players that don't want that to leave their monster memory in a learning state.
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Old January 10, 2017, 06:51   #14
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Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, then, as I don't know exactly what Lore.txt is... from your post it sounds like it's the file that stores the monster memory, which means that the import toggles between spoiled and unspoiled. I had assumed Lore.txt was some kind of guide file which could be looked up, and replacing it simply offered a monster lookup instead of the original help file.

What TomeNET has is an online lookup completely separate from monster memory(it's possible monster memory doesn't exist at all - if it does I've never used it, since it's much less helpful in realtime), which allows players to look up monsters(and artifacts, and in fact the entire game guide) at their discretion, which is what I was suggesting - that way it doesn't spoil anything for players that do want to use the existing memory feature, but is available to anyone who does want to look up the information but isn't aware of the copy trick, and doesn't want to parse the raw .txt file for the information they're after(or isn't aware of that, either).

Just a thought, of course - I find it to be quite a useful feature in TomeNET, and it might be worth considering for addition in Vanilla.
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Old January 10, 2017, 12:24   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avenger View Post
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, then, as I don't know exactly what Lore.txt is... from your post it sounds like it's the file that stores the monster memory, which means that the import toggles between spoiled and unspoiled. I had assumed Lore.txt was some kind of guide file which could be looked up, and replacing it simply offered a monster lookup instead of the original help file.
Lore text is where the monster memory is stored. It starts off empty, then is written to as you discover stuff about monsters. Or it can be fully populated by overwriting with monster.txt.

I'm not really seeing a huge upside in creating a completely different system, given the marginal difference it would provide. But then again, I'm not Nick, so maybe it will happen.
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Old January 10, 2017, 20:30   #16
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The idea behind monster memory is that you get full information about monster abilities only when you are familiar enough with the game and you don't need it anymore.
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Old January 10, 2017, 21:30   #17
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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
This is an old old discussion. FWIW I think the idea of monster memory is stupid, and have advocated for telling the players the rules of the game [i.e. full monster info] for more than a decade.
Whoops, didn't mean to bring up old topics (though I'm sure nearly every topic has been touched on at one time or another).

From a game design perspective, I love the concept of monster memory and learning from experience. It aids immersion by tying you and your character together in learning experiences... you and @ are sharing your discoveries and failures. It also enhances that visceral fear that comes from diving and discovering new mobs; each mob having a more verbose and foreboding lore than the previous, and that intimidating description is given more gravity by the lack of subsequent information detailing what that monster is capable of. In a narrative-bereft game like Angband, it seasons the gameplay with a little bit of a story element.

That being said, I agree with PowerDiver. While it helps Angband in several ways, the time-release nature of that information is more crippling to gameplay than it is beneficial simply because Angband is a rogue-like. Without that info, you will die, and it's simply not your fault. You didn't have the info to make an educated decision.

Quote:
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The idea behind monster memory is that you get full information about monster abilities only when you are familiar enough with the game and you don't need it anymore.
Pretty much this... the people who direly need this info are the newbies, and they start out with none. Would it be better just to give full monster lore from the start instead of having new players troll through the forums and internet trying to find out specific mob stats or how to "hack" this info into their in-game monster lore?
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Old January 10, 2017, 21:41   #18
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Originally Posted by Oraticus View Post
That being said, I agree with PowerDiver. While it helps Angband in several ways, the time-release nature of that information is more crippling to gameplay than it is beneficial simply because Angband is a rogue-like. Without that info, you will die, and it's simply not your fault. You didn't have the info to make an educated decision.
Well, more specifically the crippling comes from a) the fact that monsters in Angband can often one-shot you (or more generally, get you into a lethal situation, e.g. knocked out, paralyzed, chain-confused, etc.), so you can't afford to just let them do their thing and learn from experience, and b) monsters don't change from one game to another. So you as a player will end up learning all the monsters eventually anyway, at which point the learned monster memory thing is just a barrier preventing you from easily accessing knowledge that you really have anyway.

The monster memory mechanic would make more sense in a game where monsters aren't as powerful and where their capabilities are randomized across playthroughs.
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Old January 11, 2017, 19:42   #19
caruso
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Originally Posted by bio_hazard View Post
The bummer is that I think the old bestiary had info for some of the variants too, didn't it?
You can still look it up via the Wayback Machine at the Internet Archive.

edit: The search engine won't work, but you can still click the numbers and initials below to search the list manually (or with Ctrl-F). Also, you may get an error message 503. In that case, just refresh the page a couple of times.

Last edited by caruso; January 12, 2017 at 14:09.
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Old January 11, 2017, 20:06   #20
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You can still look it up via the Wayback Machine at the Internet Archive
You can see the page, but the search itself doesn't work. The search was implemented server-side, and of course the Wayback machine can't archive it...
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