Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old February 3, 2011, 20:38   #41
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8,928
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Elessar and the rings of power are the main offenders, I think. RoPs are expected to be powerful, though; the main issue is that they're too common as it stands. Though it's not like they need the combat bonuses either. Wouldn't hurt to nix 'em.

While we're at it, could we drop Cambeleg to (+6, +6)? Currently Fingolfin has trouble competing because Cambeleg provides almost as good combat boosts and better stat boosts.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 3, 2011, 20:47   #42
Antoine
Ironband/Quickband Maintainer
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,008
Antoine is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Elessar and the rings of power are the main offenders, I think. RoPs are expected to be powerful, though; the main issue is that they're too common as it stands. Though it's not like they need the combat bonuses either. Wouldn't hurt to nix 'em.

While we're at it, could we drop Cambeleg to (+6, +6)? Currently Fingolfin has trouble competing because Cambeleg provides almost as good combat boosts and better stat boosts.
What about halving the combat bonuses on ALL non-weapon, non-shooter arts?

Also, should we rethink DSMs of Permanence and Speed? I see these are very common on recent winners, they seem to be displacing arts and no doubt by supplying so many goodies, they free up other slots.

A.
__________________
Ironband - http://angband.oook.cz/ironband/
Antoine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 3, 2011, 20:57   #43
Nick
Vanilla maintainer
 
Nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canberra, Australia
Age: 54
Posts: 7,849
Donated: $60
Nick will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antoine View Post
Also, should we rethink DSMs of Permanence and Speed? I see these are very common on recent winners, they seem to be displacing arts and no doubt by supplying so many goodies, they free up other slots.
The thing with DSM (and I found it in FA, too) is that it's supposed to be super-cool rare armour - and nobody wears it if they find it. So adding egos is one approach.

IMHO Permanence should be Robes only, and I don't know what the best answer for DSMs is.
__________________
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
Nick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 3, 2011, 21:22   #44
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,057
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
The "random subset" concept would certainly fail to please completionists, who would have no way of knowing if they were done or not. There's also some question of balance: certain artifacts are major "standard kit" these days, while others are completely ignorable; thus a game that uses a random subset can be made much harder if the standard kit items are removed, or changed not much at all if the "junkarts" are removed. Do we want that kind of uncontrolled variability?
IMO yes. The whole "standard kit" concept is totally, totally wrong. (I'm not arguing that it exists, but that it shouldn't.) This is why I hate Thorin so much - far too findable and far too no-brainer-y. Ironically the ascension of Haradrim has finally addressed that a little, but I don't want Haradrim to become "standard endgame kit" either. (When +1 blows is replaced with a smaller increment to epb, it won't be such an obvious choice.)

I think the first step is to change the basic ego/artifact generation probabilities so that they are less common, more in line with 3.0.x, without re-creating TMJ. I have been focused on refactoring with my free time recently, but I'll try to put some thought into this and get something into nightlies for testing quite soon.

Once that's in, *then* we can look at specific issues (RoP, ego DSM, whatever). I think the basic problem at the moment is that ALL the good stuff is too common, so I don't think we should home in on anything just yet.

I also think we need to postpone the slashing of combat bonuses until the evasion/absorption stuff is merged for testing - that will essentially be a big reset button for melee damage, so we'll need to rebalance then anyway.
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4, 2011, 03:29   #45
Timo Pietilš
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Climbing up from hole I just dug.
Posts: 4,096
Timo Pietilš is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
While we're at it, could we drop Cambeleg to (+6, +6)? Currently Fingolfin has trouble competing because Cambeleg provides almost as good combat boosts and better stat boosts.
You can find Set of Caestus of Power (+5,+8) [3,+x] (+5) which clearly beat even Cambeleg if you are not in final two STR points short of 18/220.

Cambeleg is valued over Fingolfin because of CON-bonus, not because combat boosts. Also because those two last STR points increase your to dam by four it makes this +12 to dam at that point. However Fingolfin dex bonus gives you almost certainly higher to_hit.

Because there is ego which can be equally good or even better depending of the situation I don't see a reason to nix that combat bonus. Also combat bonus on handwear actually makes sense. Shield would be another place where it makes sense, so Haradrim combat bonus wasn't really what I don't like, extra blow is (how could it give extra blow anyway?).

Elessar (+7,+7) clearly is too high. Actually it would be pretty tempting even without combat bonuses at all with +2 speed, healing activation, resist poison and STR and WIS boosts but would probably lose to +4 Trickery unless you are playing priest or paladin.

Speaking of which, as much as I like Trickery it is a bit too strong amulet. +4 speed, DEX, stealth & infra, resist poison and nexus and sustain DEX makes that no-brainer to most chars at least until you find Elessar, and even then losing two points of speed, four to stealth and nexus resists makes you think twice. Maybe we should restrict that to +2 speed?

(btw, has anybody thought any practical use to search-bonus? Currently it is the most useless item feature. Maybe make that affect LoS trap detection range?)
Timo Pietilš is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4, 2011, 05:02   #46
bulian
Adept
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 162
bulian is on a distinguished road
I think the underlying question to the DSM debate is where do ego DSMs fit in the power curve? Are they endgame armor, or should artifacts be better than them? If they are end game armor, make them deeper. If an ego is better than the most common end game artifacts for a slot, that seems to me to be a problem. DSM of permanence has been mentioned several times as always being better. It is.

DSM of speed being so good comes down to the power of large amounts of speed on items. A bigger problem to me is that =Barahir and =Tulkas are NEVER used once =speed is found. I'd rather see all end game artifacts get a small speed bonus and do away with the required ego of speed.
bulian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4, 2011, 05:36   #47
Nick
Vanilla maintainer
 
Nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canberra, Australia
Age: 54
Posts: 7,849
Donated: $60
Nick will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
(btw, has anybody thought any practical use to search-bonus? Currently it is the most useless item feature. Maybe make that affect LoS trap detection range?)
I liked the idea in this thread.
__________________
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
Nick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 5, 2011, 00:31   #48
camlost
Sangband 1.x Maintainer
 
camlost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 522
camlost is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antoine View Post
There is perhaps a way round this, although people might not like it.

At the beginning of each game, randomly select N artifacts. These artifacts will never be generated during the game by any means.

The player will have to manage his kit without those artifacts, because he will not find them no matter how long he looks.

A.
Sangband makes randarts out of the unused artifact IDs. Perhaps we could instead randomize some artifacts instead of discarding them.

That still doesn't solve the problem of quantity/rarity/power, but helps alleviate the "wait for [artifact] to complete" syndrome.
__________________
a chunk of Bronze {These look tastier than they are. !E}
3 blank Parchments (Vellum) {No french novels please.}
camlost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 5, 2011, 01:31   #49
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,057
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by camlost View Post
Sangband makes randarts out of the unused artifact IDs. Perhaps we could instead randomize some artifacts instead of discarding them.

That still doesn't solve the problem of quantity/rarity/power, but helps alleviate the "wait for [artifact] to complete" syndrome.
Some people have proposed this before for V, but my feeling is that it's never managed to reach a majority. V seems to be a straight choice between a standart set (which has long been crippled with a "standard endgame kit" problem) and a completely randart set (which has recently been overpowered).
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 9, 2011, 15:00   #50
EpicMan
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA
Posts: 356
EpicMan is on a distinguished road
I vote for the subset of the standart list. Angband has a massively variable difficulty curve - see the recent posts about early finds of BoS or the flaming ego weapon,

The biggest upside I see is not the change in difficulty of endgame fights, but the increased variety of tactics/events that will occur because player X is missing artifact Y this game.

For the sake of completionists, include the number of unknown artifacts in the knowledge menu so players can see how many more are left. This info should be presented anyways, as a spoiled/veteran player knows the total # of artifacts currently anyways.

The main downside is it changes the current "I can collect any amount of anything I want if I scum long enough" gameplay of Angband.
EpicMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Seaking of ood drops... Estie AAR 1 November 12, 2010 04:06
Bug (possible) with rating for OOD objects in r2038 Twilight Development 2 August 12, 2010 15:00
Most OOD object or creature... dhegler Vanilla 30 January 17, 2010 23:37
Boots of Speed, more common now? Neuro Vanilla 3 April 14, 2009 13:07
libband - trying again to make a common code library for *bands CJNyfalt Variants 26 October 8, 2008 02:15


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 17:22.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.