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Old February 3, 2011, 08:54   #11
Philip
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I think wands should do respectable damage, but a rod would be like three wand blasts at once, thus one wand would do more damage against a single target, eventually it will blow up while recharging. I am not sure if there should be a rod of annihalation, I think just upping the damage on drain life to around 300 with a huge recharge time should be enough. Maybe even a wand of gravity bolt, which would be similar to rift. And maybe staff of meteor storm, or maybe just wand, because staff is area stuff. What about wand of Mana Storm, which often blows up? There are many options for balancing.
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Old February 3, 2011, 20:18   #12
Antoine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
We already have a bonus to device damage from high device skill, but we don't yet have critical hits with devices. This alone would increase their utility, but I agree with Derakon that rods in particular are generally too deep to be routinely useful. The thing about them being deep is that they sometimes show up OOD, which is exciting - this I think we should keep. So I find myself agreeing with Derakon yet again - increasing the damage would retain the validity of their depth while making them more competitive for those precious inv slots.
Hold on mate

Aren't we trying to make this thing harder?

If we want to make devices more competitive we should reduce archery/melee damage and leave devices as they are now. Isnt that what is done in O (as mentioned by the OP)?

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Old February 3, 2011, 21:11   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antoine View Post
Hold on mate

Aren't we trying to make this thing harder?

If we want to make devices more competitive we should reduce archery/melee damage and leave devices as they are now. Isnt that what is done in O (as mentioned by the OP)?

A.
Well, archery damage has already been reduced for any slay/brand, and melee damage will probably be reduced as part of the absorption/evasion changes. So we are doing both - I still think device damage needs to increase to compete with spell damage.
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Old February 3, 2011, 22:52   #14
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Quote:
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Well, archery damage has already been reduced for any slay/brand, and melee damage will probably be reduced as part of the absorption/evasion changes. So we are doing both - I still think device damage needs to increase to compete with spell damage.
First, I don't think we need wands to compete with spells... even though mages are supposed to be good at devices, at high levels I don't think there should be a contest. I would rather make another class (e.g. rogue) better at devices. I think there is at least some support for this in "the literature" (EDIT: the scare quotes indicate that I'm not talking about Tolkien but rather D&D and friends).

I think we should remove attack rods. I don't think there is a balanced way to make them better enough to be worthwhile without making them too good, and I'm not really invested in their existence.

I don't think think it's worth making all wands massively more useful, although obviously we could playtest a small nudge upward (or increasing the racial/devices bonus).

I am also OK with making some of the better attack wands (annihilation, dragon breath, acid balls, etc) slightly shallower so that there is a better chance you'd use them when you see them.
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Old February 3, 2011, 23:01   #15
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First, I don't think we need wands to compete with spells... even though mages are supposed to be good at devices, at high levels I don't think there should be a contest. I would rather make another class (e.g. rogue) better at devices. I think there is at least some support for this in "the literature" (EDIT: the scare quotes indicate that I'm not talking about Tolkien but rather D&D and friends).
Yeah, I wasn't particularly thinking of magi either. I just think devices in general need a damage boost, even though we're going the other way on melee/archery.
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I think we should remove attack rods. I don't think there is a balanced way to make them better enough to be worthwhile without making them too good, and I'm not really invested in their existence.
Wow, I had exactly the opposite thought: get rid of attack *wands*, and make rods massive BFG things with long recharge times .... clearly more to consider/discuss here.
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Old February 3, 2011, 23:16   #16
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Some of the attack wands show up at a good time for mages, I'd say: they don't have the mana to be able to cast enough attack spells to take out big targets, but they can use the wands to good effect and save their mana for Recharging and mobility. Other classes have better sources of damage and thus have no need to rely on wands.

I guess if we want to make attack wands/rods more useful, we should make monsters that are explicitly hardened against nonmagical attack / weakened against magical attack -- vaguely like how the susceptibilities flags are currently only obeyed for spells, except I'd say it should be a blanket resistance to any attack that is not spell-like. This would tie in nicely with the absorption/evasion mechanic: monsters with high absorb might be better taken on with damage that is unabsorbable. Or with attacks that pierce absorption (i.e. relevant slays/brands).
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Old February 4, 2011, 08:30   #17
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Yeah, I do think we should just weaken everything else, and I think that rods should also be capable of doing damage and be reserve mana for mages, which can be only used for what it's called, basically. A mage would also have wands, but they would be for big targets, like uniques or that dragon or such.
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Old February 4, 2011, 19:38   #18
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I don't think devices are a good level to drop other things to. It would be an exceptionally elite player who could win without using anything but devices. Maybe if Morgoth didn't drain charges it would be more possible, but still much more difficult than pre-JLE (sans GOI) which seems to be the difficulty target.
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Old February 4, 2011, 20:16   #19
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Remember that, as Magnate said, moving to evasion/absorption is going to be a big reset button for damage and monster stats. It shouldn't be hard to intentionally integrate device damage into that calculus if we're overhauling everything anyway.
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Old February 4, 2011, 22:27   #20
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True, all of this should wait until overhaul is done, but definetly something to think about.
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