Making graveyards less lethal... Without nerfing the monsters.

[Therem Harth]

Just one change: instead of making tunneling monsters just able to walk through rock, make them dig through it like the player. So maybe 10 turns for granite, 6 for quartz, 4 for magma veins, etc.

I'm not sure what the coding would entail - maybe some recycling of the player digging code? And the monsters would have to stop digging when the player came into view.

IMO though, this would be good because it would make Reavers and Balrogs and the like less of an immediate problem. They'd still be trouble, but you could actually prepare for them, and LoS-breaking tactics would still be effective for a short time.

As with the earthquake-for-warriors proposal - though IMO this is a good deal less silly - the idea is to give players an option other than running away in most situations. A graveyard would still be a considerable danger, but it wouldn't require you to abandon the level before the Reavers found you.

[Derakon]

Graveyards are a major part of how the late game ups the ante. They're sort of like how early on you have to be careful to keep breeders from getting out of control; in the late game, you have to be careful to avoid letting the beasts in the graveyard notice you're around. I like them just fine as they are -- as a part of the dungeon that you really don't want to try killing.

[fizzix]

I don't have any problem with graveyards. If anything I would prefer them to be MORE lethal. Specifically, by nerfing *destruction*. But that's a topic for another thread.

[buzzkill]

Some things should dig through rock, some more quickly than others. Some things (ethereal, elementals, certain undead) should simply pass through it as if it wasn't there. I certainly don't believe that all passwall monsters should dig, but having certain things dig rather than pass isn't a bad idea. Having some more things dig slowly, isn't bad either.

[Timo Pietilä]

Originally Posted by Therem Harth

Just one change: instead of making tunneling monsters just able to walk through rock, make them dig through it like the player. So maybe 10 turns for granite, 6 for quartz, 4 for magma veins, etc.

That would just make things more boring. No thanks. Graveyards are supposed to be deadly places.

You can deal with them killing every single monster inside without dying yourself, it just takes some time and patience. Usually not worth doing though.

I would rather prefer them to have some reward, so that you don't quite as easily just ignore the whole graveyard.

[fizzix]

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä

I would rather prefer them to have some reward, so that you don't quite as easily just ignore the whole graveyard.

That's not a bad idea. I'll look into how hard it would be to put some OoD items in the center of nests. Nests (jelly, animal, undead) are treated differently in the code than pits (orc, troll, giant, dragon, demon) so it should be possible to deal with one to the exclusion of the other.

edit: pretty damn easy.

[Magnate]

Originally Posted by fizzix

That's not a bad idea. I'll look into how hard it would be to put some OoD items in the center of nests. Nests (jelly, animal, undead) are treated differently in the code than pits (orc, troll, giant, dragon, demon) so it should be possible to deal with one to the exclusion of the other.

edit: pretty damn easy.

I am playing the current comp (Sangband), and remembering how much of a difference essences make. They give you a reason to clear out all sorts of graveyards, zoos and pits - even jelly pits.

I am seriously considering trying adding the alchemy and forging code to my fork of V just to see if I can translate it to a non-skill-based version ...