[Un, others] Difficulty levels

[andrewdoull]

Hi,

I've been playing quite a bit (comparatively) of Unangband recently, for bug testing purposes, and I think, uh, I've made it quite hard.

I mean, its great that things like yellow molds, white snakes and blue jellies are now an interesting challenge for a starting player to fight.

But perhaps the starting difficulty curve is a little, uh, steep.


Andrew

BTW: wip-5a should be out in the next couple of days. There are some very corrupted zip files up at the moment and the Berlios site's broken and not letting me remove them. I guess I'm not paying, but...

[Nick]

Originally Posted by andrewdoull

I've been playing quite a bit (comparatively) of Unangband recently, for bug testing purposes, and I think, uh, I've made it quite hard.

I mean, its great that things like yellow molds, white snakes and blue jellies are now an interesting challenge for a starting player to fight.

But perhaps the starting difficulty curve is a little, uh, steep.

I've struggled with this in FA, too. I think my latest version has just about got the balance right - by removing about 60% of the monsters in wilderness. It's not quite as simple in Un because it's mostly dungeon to start with. Hard is OK as long as the player (a) can actually kill some monsters and (b) has the chance to run away from the ones they can't kill.

The other thing that I find difficult with Un is getting adequate supplies of things like Recall. I tend to wander into Farmer Maggot's dungeon, go down a couple of levels and then not know what to do. Of course, that could be just me

[andrewdoull]

Originally Posted by Nick

I've struggled with this in FA, too. I think my latest version has just about got the balance right - by removing about 60% of the monsters in wilderness. It's not quite as simple in Un because it's mostly dungeon to start with. Hard is OK as long as the player (a) can actually kill some monsters and (b) has the chance to run away from the ones they can't kill.

Both of those apply. It just feels like a very slow start... I guess the downside of keeping monsters interesting is stopping the character diving to 500 - 1000 feet on their first dungeon visit.

The other thing that I find difficult with Un is getting adequate supplies of things like Recall. I tend to wander into Farmer Maggot's dungeon, go down a couple of levels and then not know what to do. Of course, that could be just me

The dungeon guardian is only 3 levels down, so you should run into him fairly quickly, and not need recall quite so soon.

Looking at the code, its supposed to tell you who he is, and what location he's stopping you getting to, when you get to the farm, but that appears to have broken (probably with the new daylight code). Will fix it.

The new themed rooms and item piles should make supplies an easier find. For instance, you'll never lack for throwables with the early mushroom drops, and regular ammo should be dropped by a number of monsters. Pebbles can be collected from rubble as well.

So in theory, the start should be easier, supply wise.

I'm doing shop improvements to fit your buying habits in the next version, which should help. That'll allow me to start with more basic items and ramp up to mid range items when you can start to afford them.

Andrew

[Nick]

Originally Posted by andrewdoull

The new themed rooms and item piles should make supplies an easier find. For instance, you'll never lack for throwables with the early mushroom drops, and regular ammo should be dropped by a number of monsters. Pebbles can be collected from rubble as well.

So in theory, the start should be easier, supply wise.

I'm doing shop improvements to fit your buying habits in the next version, which should help. That'll allow me to start with more basic items and ramp up to mid range items when you can start to afford them.

Food and throwables have been fine; it was really only recall that was the issue. And I had no trouble finding the guardian, but I was taking him on too early, partly because it was easier than trying to find the way out again. I really think it might be just me.

[Bandobras]

Originally Posted by Nick

And I had no trouble finding the guardian, but I was taking him on too early,

The message at the game start should warn you that the Farm is very difficult dungeon and the dungeon description tells you it starts at dungeon level 3, so it has to be tough. It's mainly for Maia/High Elf Warriors or for very experienced players. Normally you'd go the Hobbit way, which is much easier both at the start and later on.

That said, I hoped making the dungeon start at DL3 will let the player acquire enough character levels to stand a chance against the guardian. Still, it's supposed to be risky, but you don't lose a lot of gameplay if you die --- usually just 3 dungeon levels' worth...

Perhaps you did not explore the levels? Perhaps you play one of the high XP races? Perhaps you don't use tricks and all your buffs on the guardians, but try to fight him just like all the mosters before? Did you try throwing lanterns/torches/oil/mushroom spores/coated daggers at the guardians? Did you try setting traps for him? Did you try luring him into interesting terrain?

[Bandobras]

Originally Posted by andrewdoull

Both of those apply. It just feels like a very slow start... I guess the downside of keeping monsters interesting is stopping the character diving to 500 - 1000 feet on their first dungeon visit.

I think the Farm dungeon is a nice substitute for initial diving --- you start at DL 3 and you fight a very tough guardian with potentially a very nice drop. Then, the LOTR way is quite fast, for those that like diving, and you can even skip some dungeons, if you like an even faster play.

Hard initial monsters are very unorthodox for Angband, but they are a major part of fun of some other games, like Crawl. Moreover, I think the whole "diving" thing is in part just a cure for wimpy initial monsters, so here you go...

There are two valid concerns with hard difficulty, however. First, unfair deaths, where the player has no chance to save himself, no time to react, etc. dispite sometimes being very well prepared and playing wisely. Second, newbies, for which most deaths are unfair, because they don't know the rules.

I'm am a proponent of an even more unorthodox cure for these two problems --- delayed death (one free turn before death in one form or another), as described at
http://developer.berlios.de/bugs/?fu...8&group_id=331
Basically, before dying for good you have one turn to react. If you played unwisely or you've spent all your resources on near-death experiences before, this will not save you. But if you are prepared, you have a good, but not 100% chance to survive (by killing your opponent with that wand of Death or fleeing or healing, etc.).

Adding the delay to the scroll of Teleport Level was one covert step to making the death-avoidance not 100% sure. So you no longer have a 100% Get Out of Jail Free card, but you are actually guaranteed a chance to use one of your 50% cards, even if you were hit with -2000HP off-screen breath... And you have to choose the right card and you'd better have many different cards prepared, so this is a bit more strategic and less paranoid than before.

[andrewdoull]

Originally Posted by Bandobras

I think the Farm dungeon is a nice substitute for initial diving --- you start at DL 3 and you fight a very tough guardian with potentially a very nice drop. Then, the LOTR way is quite fast, for those that like diving, and you can even skip some dungeons, if you like an even faster play.

Hard initial monsters are very unorthodox for Angband, but they are a major part of fun of some other games, like Crawl. Moreover, I think the whole "diving" thing is in part just a cure for wimpy initial monsters, so here you go...

Well it turns out that even just redistributingthe standard Angband monsters can significantly change the difficulty of the game: http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=30

I don't think I dislike the new difficulty curve; I just thought I'd comment on it. Are people happy playing chess like difficulty with 1500 pieces over a 256x256xinfinite board, where one bad move can lead to losing the game?

There are two valid concerns with hard difficulty, however. First, unfair deaths, where the player has no chance to save himself, no time to react, etc. dispite sometimes being very well prepared and playing wisely. Second, newbies, for which most deaths are unfair, because they don't know the rules.

I'm am a proponent of an even more unorthodox cure for these two problems --- delayed death (one free turn before death in one form or another), as described at
http://developer.berlios.de/bugs/?fu...8&group_id=331

I don't disagree with this at all - in fact, I'm thinking of implementing save games as a birth option. It'll avoid save scumming by only only saving at level change, and changing the random number seed every time you die. e.g. after loading the saved game you get your equipment back, but start on a completely fresh level.

Andrew

[pav]

So you're basically taking angband out of Angband here. The insta-death rule is the killer feature of this game. If you remove this, it's no longer Angband, but just your ordinary "save and reload until you get past this guardian" boring type of gamey.

[CJNyfalt]

In Sangband we renamed cheat_death into beginner mode. The loss of all money on death punishes the player, and the fact that you have to start over from the town means that you don't just try the same things over and over again. Better than adding save and reload IMO.

[andrewdoull]

Originally Posted by CJNyfalt

In Sangband we renamed cheat_death into beginner mode. The loss of all money on death punishes the player, and the fact that you have to start over from the town means that you don't just try the same things over and over again. Better than adding save and reload IMO.

Because the level will be generated (completely) differently, my suggestion also has this 'don't try the save and reload multiple times'...

But its basically the same idea.

Andrew