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Old January 22, 2019, 21:23   #11
Nick
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OK, this is good - I have liked the idea more the more I've thought about it, and it seems like others feel the same. In particular, I've been doing almost exactly the same analysis as Grotug

A few minor points:
  • Initially I'll have darkness from multiple monsters reinforcing, but if that's too dangerous fall back to the darkness being the largest shadow cast by an individual monster (like fph said)
  • No light from light sources on the ground - easy to implement, because it's the current situation
  • Ungoliant could even be -4 - so with the Phial you could see where she was, but not actually see her
  • There's also the thought of spells/devices/the Phial giving brief more powerful illumination
  • Priests perhaps should get some sort of light advantage; necromancers will already have the advantage that they can see in the dark

All in all I don't want it to be a major new killer of players, but I think it should present the player with new issues to deal with.
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Old January 22, 2019, 21:48   #12
Derakon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
A few minor points:
  • Priests perhaps should get some sort of light advantage; necromancers will already have the advantage that they can see in the dark
Someone should be able to do Gandalf's shtick of making his staff shine really brightly.
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Old January 22, 2019, 22:31   #13
Philip
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I don't think there's any particular harm in going ham on Ungoliant's ability to cast dark - IIRC canonically she was able to maintain darkness even against the light of the two trees, a light source of which the Silmarils were a pale imitation. Also she's really really boring as it stands, with her only real ability being having high hp, which only really means she stays at max breath damage for longer than most monsters, and she takes up more resources than her stats would imply (however, she's unimpressive enough that usually the resources you expend are renewable). She could really use a gimmick. I think perhaps she should only really be beatable in a light contest by artifact light source using priests/paladins? Everyone else would just have to deal somehow.

I think a simple way of giving Priests a light advantage would be to make some of their spells create temporary zones of light light intensity as a side effect (some kind of Sunburst type spell), and give them spells that allow them to create glyphs of light, which would be permanent zones of light intensity.

I still think +4 light radius is a low maximum. It might work out ok in rooms (still seems kinda low though) but in corridors it's not great (congrats you have vision of 9 tiles), and it's quite useless for ranged attacks.

Basically I think if light is going to be overhauled it would be nice to stop having rods of light be such an integral pack component of every non-melee pack.
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Old January 23, 2019, 22:06   #14
luneya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
OK, this is good - I have liked the idea more the more I've thought about it, and it seems like others feel the same. In particular, I've been doing almost exactly the same analysis as Grotug

A few minor points:
  • Initially I'll have darkness from multiple monsters reinforcing, but if that's too dangerous fall back to the darkness being the largest shadow cast by an individual monster (like fph said)
  • No light from light sources on the ground - easy to implement, because it's the current situation
  • Ungoliant could even be -4 - so with the Phial you could see where she was, but not actually see her
  • There's also the thought of spells/devices/the Phial giving brief more powerful illumination
  • Priests perhaps should get some sort of light advantage; necromancers will already have the advantage that they can see in the dark

All in all I don't want it to be a major new killer of players, but I think it should present the player with new issues to deal with.
I like this, with the proviso that it should only affect the player's ability to see things like terrain and monsters--books and scrolls should remain readable even if the player is carrying nothing but a basic torch and standing right next to Ungoliant.
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Old January 24, 2019, 08:35   #15
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Originally Posted by luneya View Post
books and scrolls should remain readable even if the player is carrying nothing but a basic torch and standing right next to Ungoliant.
Actually, it could be interesting to experiment with the opposite change. Currently all 1-turn guaranteed escapes are based on reading (if I am not mistaken), so taking away the possibility to read in some very isolated contexts would be a new challenge.
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Old January 24, 2019, 09:34   #16
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A few comments:

1. In principle, I like the idea of darkness generating monsters.

2. I'm a bit concerned that it will make detection and ESP even more important. I use them all the time anyway, but I do feel that they take away some of the flavour of the game, and would rather see detection/ESP become less important. Part of the charm of the early game is that you are actually exploring the dungeon and get a surprise from time to time - this disappears later in the game with access to detection/ESP/Mapping (...except for loot and the occasional Drolem).

3. I'd also like to try increasing the light radius from lights. To make high values worthwhile, maybe an exponential curve? Thus: torch = 1 square, lantern = 2 squares, phial = 4 squares, phial+gondolin = 8 squares, phial+gondolin+whateverelsegiveslightIforget = 16 squares.
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Old January 24, 2019, 12:00   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voovus View Post
2. I'm a bit concerned that it will make detection and ESP even more important. I use them all the time anyway, but I do feel that they take away some of the flavour of the game, and would rather see detection/ESP become less important. Part of the charm of the early game is that you are actually exploring the dungeon and get a surprise from time to time - this disappears later in the game with access to detection/ESP/Mapping (...except for loot and the occasional Drolem).
So what I'm hearing is that ESP and detection need to be nerfed

In all seriousness, I think there will only be a small number of darkness-creating monsters, and they won't really affect the calculations of which properties are important very much.
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Old January 24, 2019, 15:00   #18
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So what I'm hearing is that ESP and detection need to be nerfed
Eeeek! Nononononononononono.
You throw Potion of Intelligence at Nick the Vanilla Maintainer.
Nice, clean & crisp effects are great, like those of ESP and detection. The issue is that they are pretty much essential and irreplaceable for survival. (...Probably something to do with abundance of instadeath situations at high depths, which one needs to detect before stumbling into...)
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Old January 24, 2019, 17:33   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fph View Post
Actually, it could be interesting to experiment with the opposite change. Currently all 1-turn guaranteed escapes are based on reading (if I am not mistaken), so taking away the possibility to read in some very isolated contexts would be a new challenge.
You can already lose the ability to read, by being blinded, confused, or hallucinatory (I think hallucinating blocks reading, I admit it's been a long time since I tried).

My main concern with having nearby monsters be able to block you from reading is, how do you get away from them if you can't read and aren't faster than them? Literally the only options I can think of are Staff of Teleport, Rod of Recall, or an activatable artifact that has a movement power. Not to mention that a mage or priest in such a situation has just been locked out of most of their class powers.

I don't think these problems are unsolvable, but I do think we need to make the decision of whether to block reading in a conscious way, aware of the consequences.
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Old January 27, 2019, 11:22   #20
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I'll support bigger light sources if it means an end to rods of light/illumination being permanent light. Once you have a stack of light rods it's to your advantage to neurotically light every corridor around you to an extent that is unfun. To me it's less about wanting more light & more about finding a way to get rid of lighting up the whole dungeon without making exploration more painful/tedious.
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