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Old January 7, 2018, 22:45   #111
Philip
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A lot of this (no SP regen, making a balanced playstyle important, the starting gear, and ironman of course) sounds like what Ironband did. Ironband is a great variant, so you're certainly on the right track there. I do not have any ideas of my own, unfortunately - the only gripe with Ironband that I have is that I am bad at it.
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Old January 7, 2018, 23:29   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thraalbee View Post
The BIG changes to normal vanilla are
  1. Class is a hybrid arcane + holy caster with decent stealth and so-so melee and ranged
  2. No HP regeneration
  3. No SP regeneration
  4. (Near) fixed total mana (set to start at 4000 for initial play testing, not sure what is ideal)
  5. Huge nerf to potion and staff healing -- all max out at !ccw level
  6. Huge nerf to potion and staff mana restore -- all max out at 25 sp but may be eliminated entirely later
  7. Useful staring gear: dagger + sling + 15 pebbles + first book + 10x !ccw + 5x ?Id + 10x ?Phase
This is a fascinating idea, so creative. I have questions:
  • Do you mean no HP or SP regeneration for the entire game? So you just have to rely on healing potions/devices/spells and !RestoreMana?
  • I assume you have had to make C code changes, not just data file changes - is that right?

If that's yes to the second question, it's possible that I will be able to shift more stuff out to the data files so it can be done with no code changes.
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Old January 8, 2018, 00:15   #113
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1. Yes. You start with 4000 mana and then reduce this with each spell cast. The initial spells cost only 1 to cast so you can spam detection spells. And you need to, at least in the early game. Traps suddenly matter! As does fighting low level monsters. Even 10 hp damage taken early will cost a healing pot pretty soon. "Big" spells are very expensive though. Rather that than nerf eg banish/m banish effect

2. No regen needs commenting two lines of code.
Start with 4000 sp and setting player->msp to 4000 also needs small code change. Would probably be easy to parameterize
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Old January 8, 2018, 10:12   #114
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About the new spells:

- fire ball does 2 damage at level 6 -- basically a waste of mana until level 12 or so --> remove the flat -10 damage
- mana storm had its level upped without changing the base fail rate -> 23% fail at level 50 (with max INT) -> decrease the base fail rate
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Old January 8, 2018, 10:19   #115
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Is Acid Spray supposed to be a 3-square long beam? From the description, I thought it would be a small "breath" (arc effect), but the breath effect never triggers (it's just a "beam").
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Old January 8, 2018, 10:56   #116
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Mana Bolt is ridiculously overpowered: level 25, cost of 8 mana, 250 average damage at level 50 with 0% fail. This makes Mana Storm even more useless. Unfortunately, it is also the only spell to help leveling with magic, so unless you have the book, you're stuck with using a shooter (note: this was also mostly the case with regular mages).

To fix that:
- add a Lesser Mana Bolt spell that does (clvl/2)d8 damage at level 25 (see: Gauntlets of Eol -- mana bolt for 12d8 damage), but put it in an earlier book
- change Mana Bolt to Greater Mana Bolt, lower the damage a bit (for ex: clvld8), increase mana cost (for ex: 12 mana), put it later (for ex: level 35)
- decrease the fail rate of Mana Storm (23% is too high, it was 14% before)

Lesser Mana Bolt caps at roughly 100 damage, so it'll be your midgame leveling spell. Greater Mana Bolt caps at roughly 200 damage, it'll be your endgame single target spell (if you want higher single target damage, you'll use wands of annihilation for 300+ damage with MD boost). Mana Storm will be your endgame multitarget spell.
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Old January 8, 2018, 11:12   #117
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damage level

I disagree to your analysis PowerWyrm.

How is the damage calculation done for each class? "Benchmark" is the warrior class in my eyes with 6 attackes per turn and an estimated damage of 100 per hit making it 600 damage per attack sequence (but which can be exceptional higher with a mace of disruption).

I would define the goal that all classes should deliver around the same maximum damage versus Morgoth, because i cannot see why different classes should deliver different damage in the end fight.

So that makes it:
Mana Storm 500-600 total damage
Greater Mana Bolt 200-250 damage
Mana Bolt 100-120 damage
Fire Bolt 60-70 damage
Frost Bolt 30-40 damage
Magic Missle 10-20 damage

Something like that would be an exponential damage increase, always around x2 better damage.

Edit: I agree that a CL 50 mage with MaxInt should have 0% fail for ManaStorm too! Everything else sucks from player point of view (and would be nothing else than an average damage reduction).
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Old January 8, 2018, 11:19   #118
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HP / SP regeneration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
This is a fascinating idea, so creative. I have questions:
  • Do you mean no HP or SP regeneration for the entire game? So you just have to rely on healing potions/devices/spells and !RestoreMana?
  • I assume you have had to make C code changes, not just data file changes - is that right?

If that's yes to the second question, it's possible that I will be able to shift more stuff out to the data files so it can be done with no code changes.
Please - keep the game mechanics alike for different sorts of birth setups. An ironman game is basically nothing else than a game with a certain set of birth options.

Nerving HP and SP regeneration is AGAIN the totally wrong way to solve this. And please keep in mind that Relying on consumeables can increase game fun for player which like that, but also dramatically reduce fun for players like me who just like to gather their equipment and don't want to hazzle around with a mega inventory (which usually happens anyway because of different weapon / equipment flags, healings, support rods/staves etc.).

We do not need to transform Angband into another game, the goal should be to reshape the details to increase fun for all classes (which is usually connected with a certain playing style).
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Old January 8, 2018, 11:24   #119
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ironman class

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thraalbee View Post
Thank you Nick and all contibutors! I love this branch and encourage challenging even things we take for granted are already ideal.
---
Since I only play ironman outside competitions I have my own set of things I'd like to see.
My current project is a new class named "Ironman" but still plays as "New Mage" for now.

The idea is a class that is intended for ironman game only -- no shops, no recall, no going up stairs -- and optimized in a way to:
  1. give some love to ironman games, we have not seen development here for ages
  2. enforce a varied play style in each game, can't rely on just one or two of melee, ranged, stealth, arcane and holy
  3. eliminate scumming
  4. allow über spells like ?banish, ?mass banish and ?destruct to stay but at a very high cost

The BIG changes to normal vanilla are
  1. Class is a hybrid arcane + holy caster with decent stealth and so-so melee and ranged
  2. No HP regeneration
  3. No SP regeneration
  4. (Near) fixed total mana (set to start at 4000 for initial play testing, not sure what is ideal)
  5. Huge nerf to potion and staff healing -- all max out at !ccw level
  6. Huge nerf to potion and staff mana restore -- all max out at 25 sp but may be eliminated entirely later
  7. Useful staring gear: dagger + sling + 15 pebbles + first book + 10x !ccw + 5x ?Id + 10x ?Phase

Balancing this will be difficult but I have started to play test a bit.

The early game is interesting
- You have to sneak, detect, avoid and ?phase a lot
--- No magic missile or attack wand from start and only 15 pebbles to your sling
--- Stealth for this class is closer to Rogue than Mage, you'll look for stealth boosts too I guess
--- Detection is nearly free
--- Every HP of damage you sustain will cost you dearly unless your !clw stack is extreme

Mid game
- All your five books are common from level 10 so you'll be able to play more freely pretty soon
- The idea is to encourage a varied game play instead of static tactics
--- But melee only is expensive - if you get hurt you'll have to spend mana to heal
--- And if you kill with spells, you also spend mana
--- Ranged will be important, but you are NOT a ranger, so it's not that effective either

Vaults
- Vaults are abundant in vanilla, but will be expensive for this class
- You CAN use ?banish and ?mass banish, but they draw a LOT of mana, so only for a few vaults

End Game
- You will lose more than you gain from gathering a zillion potions and scrolls for the final fights
- If your mana is out, you are probably toast! The big heal spells are the only way to restore more than a !ccw would
- I'll see if I can add a spell that transfers blood to mana, e.g. 50 permanent HP less for restore of 250 SP
- Not enough mana to take out Morgoth with spells if that's what you also used to kill his minions!
Ideally, your melee weapons should degrade with use so that this goes both ways.

First ROUGH draft of spells (player starts with only the first book and no gold, i.e. no healing except 10x !clw)

[Essential Arcana]
(1) Find Traps, Doors & Stairs [1 mana]
(1) Detect Monsters [1 mana]
(10) Sense Invisible [8 mana]
(15) Reveal Monsters [6 mana]
(20) Detection [10 mana]
(1) Phase Door [1 mana]
(7) Teleport Self [6 mana]
(10) Phase Door II [2 mana] - doubled distance
(20) Teleport Other [10 mana]
(28) Teleport Level [17 mana]

[Holy Assistance]
(1) Remove Fear [2 mana]
(3) Call Light [2 mana]
(7) Satisfy Hunger [5 mana]
(5) Neutralize Poison [6 mana]
(7) Remove Curse [6 mana]
(25) Dispel Curse [40 mana]

[Holy Embrace]
(1) Cure Light Wounds [2 mana]
(5) Cure Serious Wounds [4 mana]
(9) Cure Critical Wounds [7 mana]
(21) Heal [16 mana]
(30) Healing [50 mana]
(35) Restoration [70 mana]
(35) Remembrance [70 mana]
(39) Holy Word [32 mana]

[Magical Tricks and Defence]
(5) Recharging [5 mana]
(10) Identify Rune [7 mana]
(13) Door Creation [9 mana]
(20) Resistance [20 mana]
(32) Shield [24 mana]
-
[Dungeon Control]
(5) Unbarring Ways [6 mana]
(13) Sense Surroundings [10 mana]
(25) Word of Destruction [100 mana]
(30) Banishment [75 mana]
(35) Mass Banishment [75 mana]

[Power and Destruction]
(9) Orb of Draining [7 mana]
(15) Draining spear [10 mana]
(25) Mana Spray [15 mana]
(40) Annihilation [15 mana]
(42) Mana Storm [16 mana]


Thoughts and ideas are very welcome! But NO FLAMES PLEASE -- I'm doing this for myself.
However, if it eventually turns out as I hope, I'll be happy to share

best regards, Mathias
A good idea generally - but we mix stuff here again. Currently we should focus on getting the arcane magic branch straight. Then the other three, then fine tuning of spell mana cost / damage etc. And then see that different birth options are still playable.
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Old January 8, 2018, 12:37   #120
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New builds up, with the following changes:
  • Lightning beam replaced with Electric Arc, finite length (increasing with character level) beam spell, changed to level 2, 2 mana
  • Recharge moved into second book
  • Fire Ball damage amended as per PowerWyrm
  • Acid Spray made a wider cone
  • New spell in 3rd book, Tap Magical Energy, turns staff and wand charged into mana
  • Detection spell in 4th book
  • Mana Bolt made like PowerWyrm's Lesser Mana Bolt
  • Thrust Away made like PW's Greater Mana Bolt
  • Mana Storm fail rate adjusted
  • New spell in 5th book, Mana Channel, makes spellcasting temporarily twice as fast (like extra shots are done, substitute for haste)
  • Dungeon books start dropping at 30, 40, 60 instead of 30, 50, 70

My test character is now DL26, CL22, and definitely not underpowered.
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