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Old September 1, 2010, 16:42   #11
EpicMan
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I prefer randarts to standarts because they are a logical extension of ego items. While the uber standards (Ringil, etc) are very rare and are special finds, moist artifacts are common enough you can plan on finding them (phial, whatever helm has the resist blindness, etc) almost every single game.

With Randarts, I have absolutely no idea what my endgame gear is going to look like, and I can't even depend on scumming for Thengel or whatever to fill in a hole in my gear. Instead of set items, randarts are super-ego items.

I'd also go for some randomized unique foes as well (maybe add some random flags to the orc uniques to give them some flavor, etc), but the consensus on that seems to be it's a variant thing.
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Old September 1, 2010, 21:21   #12
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Blimey, that's rather too much speed on boots (every pair except one). I rather hope that set is an outlier.
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Old September 1, 2010, 21:31   #13
Taha
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My last game the max artifact boots were a +10 speed, AC +40, nothing else. All the others were far lower speed, and generally pathetic. The game before that, +9 INT / +9 speed was pretty nice, but those were the only features on them - and while +9 int sounds great, they showed up deep enough so that I was already at max. That set is far, far better than any I have seen.
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Old September 1, 2010, 21:52   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
Blimey, that's rather too much speed on boots (every pair except one). I rather hope that set is an outlier.
The power rating for +8 Wis, +8 speed seems a tad low, doesn't it?
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Old September 1, 2010, 22:22   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
The power rating for +8 Wis, +8 speed seems a tad low, doesn't it?
What, the 214? That seems about right - don't forget how little WIS is worth to 4/6 of characters.
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Old September 1, 2010, 22:37   #16
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That's something that bugs me about the power ratings, actually. They're independent of the character being played. Half the classes don't care about INT; two-thirds of the classes don't care about WIS. But for the classes that do care, those stats are hugely important! In other words, player power ratings for artifacts don't match the assigned power ratings because the player is giving ratings based on the practical utility of the item for the character in question, while the game is trying to generate a power rating that's independent of character.

What do you think of the idea of making randart generation dependent on the character? In other words, you'd have a set of power-rating tweaks based on class/race: a priest will value +WIS more than a warrior will, but is less interested in +INT than a mage. Most powers would be of equal utility for all classes, so it's only a few outliers that would need this. I'll grant this is really weird, but given the potential for randarts to sometimes wildly favor one class over another (unlike standarts, which tend to be less extreme), I think it'd serve as an effective nerf of these only-useful-to-some randarts. It'd also make priest randart games a bit less of a gamble, since non-blessed sharp weapons would get a power rating nerf.

Heck, you could base the power ratings on the character's base stats, too. "Oh, I see you're a gnome mage. Whelp, this +6 CON shield is now too powerful; guess I'll have to reroll it."
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Old September 2, 2010, 01:08   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
What do you think of the idea of making randart generation dependent on the character?
I don't like this approach if only for your gnome mage example. It would suck to play a mage and have all the randarts get huge Wis bonuses just because the power is then low enough.

@Magnate

214 is low. Boots with nothing but +8 speed should be about 250. I think you're oscillating around the correct point with how much to value speed. You've overshot on the latest adjustment undervaluing it.

@rest of thread:

Something does need to be done with fudging the Int and Wis power. My last game had tons of huge Wis bonuses but no big Int bonuses. That seems wrong. I think it should be split more 50-50. This is begging for multiple pvals though, so we may have to wait for that. Then we can soft cap stat bonuses to some reasonable level, like +5, and still allow speed to be +10.

In reality I'd like to see Int and Wis combined and Charisma removed altogether, but that's fantasyland.
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Old September 2, 2010, 09:14   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
I don't like this approach if only for your gnome mage example. It would suck to play a mage and have all the randarts get huge Wis bonuses just because the power is then low enough.

@Magnate

214 is low. Boots with nothing but +8 speed should be about 250. I think you're oscillating around the correct point with how much to value speed. You've overshot on the latest adjustment undervaluing it.

@rest of thread:

Something does need to be done with fudging the Int and Wis power. My last game had tons of huge Wis bonuses but no big Int bonuses. That seems wrong. I think it should be split more 50-50. This is begging for multiple pvals though, so we may have to wait for that. Then we can soft cap stat bonuses to some reasonable level, like +5, and still allow speed to be +10.

In reality I'd like to see Int and Wis combined and Charisma removed altogether, but that's fantasyland.
Wow, lots to pick up here.

First, I haven't actually changed the power ratings for speed for a very long time. My last change was to make speed more common on boots in higher quantities, because there were too many randart sets with no boots better than +4 speed, and too many winners wearing straight +9 speed boots instead of artifacts. I may have gone too far, but it's too early to tell whether fizzix's set is an outlier.

Secondly, I don't have a clear idea of the difference between 214 and 250, so I'm curious as to how anyone else can. I don't mean to be rude, I just don't understand. The only difference I can think of is price, and speed items have always seemed underpriced because of the psychological effect of their previous massive prices. That's not to say that they're now correctly priced, of course - it's possible that speed is still undervalued so I'm happy to revisit that with the next set of changes (real soon now ...).

Thirdly, I'm open to the idea of allowing object_power to make reference to p_ptr->pclass in its calculations. It's a complete change from the current paradigm, and will further break comparability with standarts, but neither of those issues is insurmountable. Grateful for further views on this. (I don't think the gnome mage example would be a problem, as referring to class would actually help *reduce* the number of junk randarts.)

Finally, I'm really thinking about multiple pvals quite seriously now, as it's something I know Takkaria would support. I've got two quite big things to do first (pref files and fractional blows), but then I think a return to artifacts would be helpful. I want to do a complete rewrite of both obj-power.c and randart.c, and both fractional blows and multiple pvals are necessary before I can do that properly. (So are three other things: getting rid of the limitations around "special" artifacts, sorting out the new curses, and revising the monster power algorithm. Fortunately someone (nullfame, IIRC) has taken on the latter.)

Ho hum. Shame I have to work, really.
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Old September 2, 2010, 19:09   #19
EpicMan
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The problem with tying the powers of stat boosts to player class is that priests would find lots more artifacts with int bonuses while mages would see lots of useless wis bonuses and fewer int bonuses. Even in the most powerful arts, the opposite stat would be more likely to be added because it is cheaper and more could be fit in than the higher-valued main stat.

The upshot of this is that the best mage randarts would be found in priest/paladin games and vice-versa.

Then again, the RNG has a tendency to be sadistic, so perhaps this would fit right in after all.
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Old September 2, 2010, 19:40   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicMan View Post
The problem with tying the powers of stat boosts to player class is that priests would find lots more artifacts with int bonuses while mages would see lots of useless wis bonuses and fewer int bonuses. Even in the most powerful arts, the opposite stat would be more likely to be added because it is cheaper and more could be fit in than the higher-valued main stat.

The upshot of this is that the best mage randarts would be found in priest/paladin games and vice-versa.

Then again, the RNG has a tendency to be sadistic, so perhaps this would fit right in after all.
I am pretty confident that we can code around that problem, if we choose to introduce class-specific randart generation.
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