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Old February 4, 2019, 21:24   #41
Narry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sphara View Post
I'm not a huge fan of water tiles in roguelikes in general, although it's hard to criticize here beforehand. Before I know how it is going to be done, that is. For my part, adding water will be tolerated but probably not appreciated. If its gonna be always-avoid-type of terrain like it is in ADOM, Nethack, Brogue and DCSS, I'm just going to walk, teleport or phase out of there and ignore it, if it's humanly possible.

If it gets done, please do not add item destruction/corrosion with it for more 'realism'!
I'm with Sphara concerning this issue.
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Old February 5, 2019, 04:30   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sphara View Post
If it gets done, please do not add item destruction/corrosion with it for more 'realism'!
Whats the problem with that? If there would be quite rare event when one of your scrolls would be destroyed? It's totally alright experience, I've played with it in TomeNET and it's ok.

The only important thing - not to make it too harsh.

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Old February 5, 2019, 05:09   #43
Sphara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tangar View Post
Whats the problem with that? If there would be quite rare event when one of your scrolls would be destroyed? It's totally alright experience, I've played with it in TomeNET and it's ok.

The only important thing - not to make it too harsh.

In RNG we trust (tm)
If Nick and majority of the players want it to be implemented, I don't wanna stay on their way. But personally I do not care about the idea. Like I said, I haven't seen a roguelike where water squares provide nothing more than (minor or major) annoyance.

Regarding to item destruction, just few subjective arguments:
1) The game has enough item destruction as it is.

2) Scrolls of teleport level, (mass) banishment, destruction, rune of protection, for example, are far too valuable for me to risk losing them by voluntarily stepping on a dangerous terrain tile. Like I said earlier, I do not care for an addition that I'm most likely to ignore.

3) I do not want more situations like Lich/Balrog fights, where I stash drainable wands and staves somewhere before the hassle.

4) It would require lots of unnecessary coding, like adding |FLIGHT| flags on monsters. I don't know if this is an issue for Nick, though.

5) If it gets added, <-5> Speed doesn't sound THAT rough but it alone would still make it always-avoid-type terrain. Why would I move on a terrain that both slows me and randomly destroys my scrolls unless I'm absolutely forced to? Only reason would be that something like NetHack Medusa level or one those horrible ADOM rivers, stand between me and the downstairs.

Last edited by Sphara; February 5, 2019 at 05:15.
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Old February 6, 2019, 06:00   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sphara View Post
If Nick and majority of the players want it to be implemented, I don't wanna stay on their way. But personally I do not care about the idea. Like I said, I haven't seen a roguelike where water squares provide nothing more than (minor or major) annoyance.

Regarding to item destruction, just few subjective arguments:
1) The game has enough item destruction as it is.

2) Scrolls of teleport level, (mass) banishment, destruction, rune of protection, for example, are far too valuable for me to risk losing them by voluntarily stepping on a dangerous terrain tile. Like I said earlier, I do not care for an addition that I'm most likely to ignore.

3) I do not want more situations like Lich/Balrog fights, where I stash drainable wands and staves somewhere before the hassle.

4) It would require lots of unnecessary coding, like adding |FLIGHT| flags on monsters. I don't know if this is an issue for Nick, though.

5) If it gets added, <-5> Speed doesn't sound THAT rough but it alone would still make it always-avoid-type terrain. Why would I move on a terrain that both slows me and randomly destroys my scrolls unless I'm absolutely forced to? Only reason would be that something like NetHack Medusa level or one those horrible ADOM rivers, stand between me and the downstairs.
Word.

ADOM has a way of getting around with it by either casting (or aiming a wand or zapping a rod of) frost bolt or building a bridge over the water. Of course, for the latter option you need the skill and some logs. And you get logs by chopping down trees with a hatchet. Let's not go down that river (pun intended).
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Old February 6, 2019, 09:40   #45
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I'm speaking on behalf of my TomeNET experience. There is such risks:

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Originally Posted by tangar View Post
- aquatic monsters which can spawn only at 'water' tiles; they can pursue player even in 'shallow' water, but can't leave it to surface
- swimming in deep water give a chance for scrolls & other items to be destroyed; water resistance items or tarpaulin (tool slot) protect from it.
- eventually you could die (drown) if you are tired and bad at swimming // but it's VERY-VERY tiny chance. In most cases if you are unlucky you would reduce stat (STR/DEX/CON)
- 'swimming' skill & racial parameter; It would be fun to have it in Angband (like 'Digging') eg makes hobbit swim not really good ^^
- you can not create walls on deep water; not all stuff could be summoned on deep water
- there is fresh and salt water. You could fill bottle; eg with salt water and use this potions to throw to the enemies or 'clean' your stomach
...and it don't feel harsh at all (even with the possibility to have quite wide squares under water). In general you try to avoid water terrains, but you do not fear too much to swim from one shore to another. So when you are 'forced' to cross water - you do it. This isn't harsh 'forcing', it's like a choice from easy path to a bit more risky. It doesn't feel hardcore at all.

'Water' should be risky terrain. Not 'dangerous' like lava, but 'risky'.
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Old March 25, 2019, 19:51   #46
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Here I go on the water.

I like the idea of water in Angband a lot, but have not really liked it in my (very limited) experience of variants. I hated the water in Unangband, do not like what I am seeing on FrogComposband, and think that what Nick describes for other variants sounds bad too.

In contrast, I really like Derekon's water, which seems like a more thought-out version of what I have been imagining myself. It should be primarily a speed reducer, and a spawning ground for certain types of monsters.

I think the only thing I disagree with him on is that deep water should not exist. In my opinion deep water should exist, but it should be very rare, rarer than lava, and that rather than casually drowning you if you step in, deliberately or by accident, it should simply be impassible by @, like permanent rock. Perhaps higher-level characters could cross it, like lava, but in that case the game should definitely ask the player for confirmation before letting him step there. I would likewise make it that only water monsters, such as elementals, vortices, the Watcher, etc., could go in deep water. That poses a real challenge for melee characters, but perhaps it is not a bad thing to force a player to wait until he has Teleport Other to fight certain monsters. I would put this very rare deep water in a handful of vaults (something that divides the vault like permanent rock does but is passable to certain select monsters sounds like good fun to me), and in pool rooms, equivalent to the lava rooms which we already see today (what I call 'craters').

Quote:
Spell effects could also expand; "fly" "levitate" "pass water" (grief, that one needs a better name) "dry ground".
I very much like the idea of two spells, one to pass water by, equivalent to the current one that temporarily jams traps, and another to remove water. 'Dry Ground' is an excellent name for the latter, but for the former, I think I would prefer 'Breathe Water', at least if it was used for deep water. That would limit its use to water (I do not want 'Levitate' being used to pass traps), and keep away from the issue of @ swimming, which just seems like a big mistake to me. For a spell to pass normal water, perhaps there could be a 'Walk Unhampered' spell, which takes away all movement penalties from water and overburdening for 1d5+5 turns (it should not take away slowness from inertia or gravity - or should it?).

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I don't think water should be a perfect defense against powerful fiery monsters (like big dragons). I'd like to see them either able to fly over the water, or dry it up, or just wade on in.
I agree water should not be a defense against powerful fire monsters, except perhaps for fire elementals (if those count as powerful; I have an idea for a new kind of fire elemental that definitely does count, but that is for another thread). Tolkien has already given us what happens when a great fiery dragon enters the water: he creates a great cloud of steam.
Quote:
For example, if sufficiently strong firebreath could convert water into steam, which dealt immense damage as the player was broiled in their armor...that's surprising in a bad way, both because weaker firebreath didn't create steam and because the steam is so deadly.
I agree that steam that does material damage is bad. On the other hand, when Glaurung creates his cloud of steam, it produces a darkness effect, and frightens the Elves and horses. Darkness (low damage) and giving fear don't seem too much off, and the frightening need not be included if it is too much trouble.

Quote:
Water should also be generatable:
- by monster water spells like the Mystic's
- by a player spell 'create water'
- by watery or icy creatures leaving a trail behind them
- when a water elemental is killed (sploosh)
I like generatable water. Monster spells sound like excellent attacks, so long as they are not overdone (but if good mechanics for webs have already been put in without making them gamebreaking, I am not worried). It seems similar to an idea I have been thinking of for exclusively monster-created traps of a more deadly nature than most of the normal ones: 'Saruman creates a fountain of fire under you. You are burned!' After all, that is what he did to Beachbone; it would amount to turning the floor under the player to lava. I also like 'Create Water' as a player spell to create a tactical barrier; man could that turn a long straight corridor into a killing ground for low-level monsters. More flavourful names might include 'Holy Rain', 'Command to Flood', and 'Raise Spring'. I don't think that I like the trail of water, except perhaps incredibly rarely. I would be OK with Waldern and Osse leaving water trails, but that is about it. A dead water elemental leaving a little pool is not bad flavour, and I would be all right with it, provided the coders do not object.

Quote:
Water should evaporate and lava would become 'cold' to form a rock - passable rubble or a wall also could depend - is it shallow water/lave (lava depth matters!)

Also it's great thing to be able to 'freeze' water (with spells or breath of powerful frosty mobs)
I don't think that water should interact with other elements to produce something new. Water should not be generated to produce lava, and if a lava-producing fire-breather breathes on it, it should have the same chance of turning to lava as ordinary floor does; with deep water immune to such lava effects.

If there is frost/ice terrain, well and good; I imagine that upper level cold-breathers could turn water to frost terrain just as they would turn floor to it. Such frost terrain has been something I have been hoping for. I would want it concentrated in glaciers, rooms equivalent to craters and lakes, where it would be a spawning ground for snow trolls, white dragons, cold elementals, and other frosty creatures. I would give snow a similar slowing effect to water, but perhaps more severe. It would give a speed penalty at least as great as water's (perhaps not to Elves; see Legolas), but be removable by digging. Perhaps it could hide items like rubble does, too. It might just give you a bit of damage if you are barefoot or in sandals. Given Helm's invisibility in the snow while wearing white garments, and this being compared to a snow troll, I like the idea that snow trolls use the same sign as snow terrain does, a bit like mimics. Perhaps there could also be 'terrible ice', the cold equivalent of lava, which deals out damage whether you are wearing boots or not.

Quote:
It also might be fun if a mage could use a pool of water to create a powerful attack spell the way Arwen does to thwart the Nazgul shortly before arriving at Rivendell with Frodo in the movies. The spell simply would not be possible without at least 20 connected tiles of water available to the Mage. (You need a sufficient body of water to create the spell).
I like this as a high-level spell; imagine the satisfaction of being able to cast water balls, albeit in highly specific circumstances. Would there be a possibility of being able to cast higher-power fire spells with access to lava, or perhaps cold spells when you are with my snow?

Quote:
Since Nick is not terribly moved to add water, I might suggest implementing it in very limited form (ie. water shows up sparingly; and no giant lakes; just the occasional pool where smeagol might be found slinking about).Maybe have it only show up in cavern levels. With only one (max two) pools on such a level, and small, like maybe a small pool at the edge of an area, easy to circumnavigate.
For myself, I have been imagining water even more limited than this, just lake rooms (as rare as craters) and the occasional one-cell-wide stream, I must admit that I like Grotug's little pools.

Quote:
My preference would be to start with "small streams and pools".

-no more than 3 tiles wide
-no risk of drowning, always passable by @
-no effect on lights
-no new monsters, but maybe new traps
-Slow (-5) and combat penalties for @
-Same penalties for most non-flying monsters
**impassable by some monsters (maybe some lesser undead and demons, reptiles), blocks tracking for some monsters
-can't rest
I agree on a limit width of three or four tiles, except for the rare lakes, which you need not enter at all, and definitely agree that you should not drown in normal water and that there should be no effect on lights. The speed penalties are good, and I like the new suggestion of the impossibility of resting in water. I disagree with the assertion that there should be no new monsters; bring on the Watcher, and maybe confine some current monsters to water. I actually have a few ideas of my own for water monsters, but they can wait until the issue of whether there is to be water at all is settled. Otherwise all these thoughts are good.

Quote:
Honestly my biggest concern with -5 speed isn't the effect it'd have when applied to the player: it's the effect when applied to monsters. I foresee the player trying to lure monsters to rivers so that the player can stand on the banks and get a free relative +5 speed modifier. We'd want to be certain to make the AI smart enough to not stand in water if there's an alternative (or unless the monster isn't affected by water).
I'm not that worried about this, though I may defer to the infinitely more experienced Derakon. The only issue I am really seeing is that such concerns mean that any 'Create Water' spell should be expensive in mana, or short-lived (1d4+2?).

Quote:
Then game would become 'lets lurk monsters to the water'. Every tile of water would become as main place of interest for the battle and player would 'dance' around it to bring mobs there. Water should be less 'important' in terms of tactics. Players are too 'munchkinish' and would harrass this heavely.
I don't see this as a difficulty, firstly because water should not be common, secondly because it should not be abundant, except in the extra-rare lake rooms (crater lakes?) which should not appear more than five times or so in a long game, and thirdly because where there is water there are likely to be water monsters, who will not be slowed, thus maintaining the challenge, and giving some incentive not to hang around the water too much for the sake of land monsters' disadvantage.

Quote:
I would put a secret -1 to -10 speed penalty on water cells that you discover only hybrid stepping on it. It should also affect melee, archery, and AC. If the effect is 6 or more, you can't use a longbow.
I do not like the sound of this. I much prefer a set speed penalty; so much of the game depends on making calculated decisions, and I don't want to be thrown off by unpredictable water.

Quote:
Regarding to item destruction, just few subjective arguments:
1) The game has enough item destruction as it is.

2) Scrolls of teleport level, (mass) banishment, destruction, rune of protection, for example, are far too valuable for me to risk losing them by voluntarily stepping on a dangerous terrain tile. Like I said earlier, I do not care for an addition that I'm most likely to ignore.
I agree; I hate item destruction without an attack with a passion. Boo elementals crushing items in vaults!

Well, those were my thoughts. I missed the main discussion, but better late than never. Even if Nick is settled on the point for this edition of Angband, perhaps it will be relevant next time.
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