Why is inventory management gospel??

[Orillian]

This started out as a response to the "merging mage and priest books" thread and got a little carried away so I decided to post it out into it's own thread. :P


I actually find it unfortunate that so many of the people playing Angband lately are so hung up on the fact that "it's all about inventory management".

When in my experience inventory management is only a small factor in the game play. The ONLY time inventory management has ever been an issue for me is if I scum (I was under the impression that scumming is not the preferred practice by most.), I always go with the best items I find, and hope for good drops or the odd good item from the stores, but I play the game using the items I have, THAT'S what makes it fun, I NEVER scum for stat gains, I never scum for items and I go back to town only if I'm starting to get hungry or am almost dead. I will stay at a particular range of lvl's till I'm sure I can navigate the next range of lvl's but I do not expressly look for stat gain or artifacts, resistances or x hits..That stuff takes away from what makes Angband the adventure it's supposed to be. The game should not be about getting 6 hits, or getting an 18/100 in all your relevant stats, it should not be about hanging onto 100 of the best artifact items. The game should be about the adventure, about using what you have to get to the final confrontation. It would even be nice if you could have a bit of fun while doing that.

While I understand the changes I proposed regarding opening up the inventory may be hard to implement and thus would be a low priority when it comes to actual coding, they would reduce the need for player scumming and might actually get new players to the bottom of the dungeon without the need for it. Granted you will always have those people that HAVE to be the biggest and best they can before they get to the bottom of the dungeon but that does not change even with the current game design. I'm not saying my opening up of the inventory idea is the best option, but it illustrates why I think those types of change are relevant.

Now to make a small 360 regarding the above inventory idea. Since the latest 3.1.x releases I've also been finding my character inventories have generally been a lot lighter. I've had a lot of extra space lately, I'm guessing it has something to do with the drop rate changes. Now my best character has maxed at lvl 32, a dwarf priest, but even at his lvl I found his inventory on the lite side. Thus for me the above inventory changes "I" originally proposed loose some of their need.

If the adage for the game has changed to..

1. Dive
2. Find shit
3. Kill Morgoth

...maybe a serious look should be taken on ways to bring it back to the funner side. A lot of flavor has been taken out of the game lately and even more flavor is being placed on the chopping block, why? Are we trying to make this game the most un-fun dungeon crawl? Maybe amongst all the other changes, some serious though should be taken to find ways to make the game more fun, add some flavor, add some gracefulness back into the game to balance out whats been removed. Reduction in useless items has been a big thing lately.

In a game like angband you need useless items (or items that can't be used by the player) to clutter the floors of the dungeons. Of all the games that I play, due to the type of interface that angband has it is the least exciting game to look at, the dungeons are VERY sparse, due to the size of the overall dungeon + the rarity of clutter, and the general lack of creature populations per lvl. in the game, the dungeons are bare. Items that most people can leave on the ground are nice for flavor, bone piles, skeletons, broken jars, broken armor etc... unfortunately too many people are unhappy that they have to look at that stuff to see what it is. This I don't understand. In a game that had a true graphical interface this stuff would in most cases be drawn into the backgrounds to add detail and flavor, Angband can't do that.

Streamlining the game should be done in the interface, addition of graphical elements or more intuitive and more visible menus, less hiding of options and settings, make those things more transparent. We want new people to become interested in the core angband game, not turn it into a game only the diehards play. Options in the gameplay make the game replayable and exciting, things to look at make the game interesting and exciting, ease of use is paramount as well.

THE ACTUAL PART THAT WAS DIRECTLY RELATED TO THE "merging mage and priest books" THREAD :P

Any class with magic abilities automatically starts the game with an empty spellbook, one slot removed. Maybe make spellbooks found in the dungeon and even the beginning books become spell pages, if an "@" succeeds in reading the spell it gets transferred into their spellbook. if they fail they have to wait till the next time they find a genocide spell page and try again. you could even keep spellbooks, but have them contain a random selection of spells based on the level. read each spell and every one that succeeds goes into the mages spell book. The chance of success could be based still on the character lvl, thus some spells would need to be kept till you are high enough lvl to actually read them. In that manner your still managing inventory (for the diehards) and a mage class would have to decide which spell books/pages he wants to hang onto. As for other classes they could leave them on the floor of the dungeon.


Ok I'm done. enjoy!

O.

[Donald Jonker]

Since it seems I occasioned your remarks, I'll give a shot at responding.

Originally Posted by Orillian

I actually find it unfortunate that so many of the people playing Angband lately are so hung up on the fact that "it's all about inventory management".

When in my experience inventory management is only a small factor in the game play. The ONLY time inventory management has ever been an issue for me is if I scum (I was under the impression that scumming is not the preferred practice by most.),

Really? I always find things that can be useful to bring along. ?phase ?WOR !speed !CCW ?TelLevel ?recharging _telSelf -telOther (wand and rod), -STM, _mapping, _dTreasure, _dEvil, arrows, &c... if you're a warrior. If you're not, you'll fill up with spell books. Those are basics, some of which aren't strict necessities, but all of which are useful. Then there are extras like food, oil, !hero and ?blessing which are useful, _destruction.. the list goes on. There's always a ton of stuff to fill up on and make good use of, and increase your survivability.

I always go with the best items I find, and hope for good drops or the odd good item from the stores, but I play the game using the items I have, THAT'S what makes it fun, I NEVER scum for stat gains, I never scum for items and I go back to town only if I'm starting to get hungry or am almost dead.

An admirable philosophy. I don't statscum either.. or comb levels for items. That's not what I was referring to re: inventory management. You seem to not sell anything at all, and I'm hoping that the no-selling in eband will make it into vanilla as an option so it will be more viable.

I will stay at a particular range of lvl's till I'm sure I can navigate the next range of lvl's

And I thought you were a man of principle. Shame!

The game should not be about getting 6 hits, or getting an 18/100 in all your relevant stats, it should not be about hanging onto 100 of the best artifact items. The game should be about the adventure, about using what you have to get to the final confrontation. It would even be nice if you could have a bit of fun while doing that.

I agree. It should, and it is, and you can. Any RPG I can think of will reward grinders to some extent, but those who play more on the edge have more fun, and Angband is no exception, as it works right now.

While I understand the changes I proposed regarding opening up the inventory may be hard to implement and thus would be a low priority when it comes to actual coding, they would reduce the need for player scumming and might actually get new players to the bottom of the dungeon without the need for it.

I don't see how. I'm not even entirely sure of what you're suggesting. Compel people to not scum? I've said it before, but their crime provides its own punishment. Make more inventory slots? Sure, why not. I think it might be better for different items (e.g. wands) to be more varied and more useful.. But whoever said inventory management was a bad thing? Games are all about interesting trade-offs, and there you have one ultimate mechanic for generating them.

If the adage for the game has changed to..

1. Dive
2. Find shit
3. Kill Morgoth

...maybe a serious look should be taken on ways to bring it back to the funner side.

Again, is this a bad thing? I certainly didn't intend it that way. Do we fault diablo for being a game about finding shit? Angband's about finding items, cool items, and figuring out interesting ways to combine them and use them. There are fun ways to find them and lame ways to find them. IMO, diving is a fun way.

In a game like angband you need useless items (or items that can't be used by the player) to clutter the floors of the dungeons.

By definition, that's exactly what you *don't* need.
I think I see what you're saying, though.. something about atmosphere. I don't see why anything has to be useless in order to generate atmosphere. If you want background pictures, be my guest, but if you want to add shards of pottery to the floor, please give me the option to squelch them before I even bother rolling up a character. Play with tiles, or something... Do you like Nethack's clutter? I rather prefer the ability to tread over all Angband's loot and have it effortlessly sorted for me, instead of spending mind-dulling hours sorting through it all myself. I'll go out on a limb and say you're in a vanishing minority in desiring more junk to be added to the game.

Streamlining the game should be done in the interface, addition of graphical elements or more intuitive and more visible menus, less hiding of options and settings, make those things more transparent.

I prefer an uncluttered interface, and wasn't aware the options were all that hidden.. Graphics would be fine, nothing against them. AngbandTk kind of thing? I'd probably still play in ascii, though. There must be a reason all these roguelikes use it...

We want new people to become interested in the core angband game, not turn it into a game only the diehards play.

I'd say anyone who plays Angband beyond 5 mins is already a diehard. That's what you get with permadeath, and I don't think there's any way around it.

Options in the gameplay make the game replayable and exciting, things to look at make the game interesting and exciting, ease of use is paramount as well.

Options are overrated. A well-considered and balanced experience largely makes them unnecessary (and yes, I'm aware I advocated an option earlier in the post but in general it stands). I'm behind Takkaria on this one.

[Pete Mack]

Orillian wrote:

If the adage for the game has changed to..

1. Dive
2. Find shit
3. Kill Morgoth

I'm not sure what you mean by "changed to" here. The game has always included those elements, to some degree or other. In all strategies I've read, there's some involvement of the underpants gnomes. Previous strategies include:

1. Buy lantern
2. ???
3. Kill Morgoth

1. ???
2. Kill Sauron
3. Kill Morgoth
4. Not die.

So what are you proposing instead? I agree that angband is lacking in eye candy, somewhat more now that drops are reduced. But there are easy ways to solve this, like adding some trivial cave features like earth, sand, etc. (They don't even need to affect game play.)

[buzzkill]

I always feel compelled to reply to a full page post...

Originally Posted by Orillian

I actually find it unfortunate that so many of the people playing Angband lately are so hung up on the fact that "it's all about inventory management".

Angband has a few angles, IM being one of them. I'd say an important one, which is why it is so often discussed.

I always go with the best items I find, and hope for good drops or the odd good item from the stores, but I play the game using the items I have, THAT'S what makes it fun, I NEVER scum for stat gains, I never scum for items and I go back to town only if I'm starting to get hungry or am almost dead.

If I may say so, I think it's the way the game should be played, and probably how it was envisioned oh so long ago. There was no WoR (or town) in Rogue, and starvation was a frequent concern (it's what kept you moving), and the only ID you had was what you found IIRC. But to each his own. I've a similar play style, with a bit more dare-devil diver, frequently (knowingly) getting to places that neither my personal experience or equipment can support. I'm also greedy (don't know why) and have a (unexplained) need to sell nice items, even when I'm flush with GP. Quite frankly, once my character reaches the later game, and the choice of really, really nice equipment becomes great (CL30+), I start to lose interest. I guess the equipment decisions become more work than the game is fun. Hopefully, It's something I'll overcome, eventually.

...maybe a serious look should be taken on ways to bring it back to the funner side. A lot of flavor has been taken out of the game lately and even more flavor is being placed on the chopping block... Items that most people can leave on the ground are nice for flavor, bone piles, skeletons, broken jars, broken armor etc...

Agreed. In the early game things are definitely sparse. Later, the clutter is overwhelming. If only there were some equilibrium.

Options in the gameplay make the game replayable and exciting, things to look at make the game interesting and exciting, ease of use is paramount as well.

The BIG options that make the game replayable is race/class/equipment. Most of the others could go... even though I'm a big fan of options.
As for the scenery, this is true for a while. But after a while 'too much flavor' can just be annoying, like drinking maple syrup.

Any class with magic abilities automatically starts the game with an empty spellbook, one slot removed. Maybe make spellbooks found in the dungeon and even the beginning books become spell pages, if an "@" succeeds in reading the spell it gets transferred into their spellbook.

I like it, though it smells a little of D&D, not that there's anything wrong with that. I mean, we are still rolling 1d20's on PC's that GG couldn't contemplate.

I forgot what my point was... or if I ever even had one.
Perhaps my new sig.

[Nick]

Angband is a game of many possibilities. The whole buy lantern, kill Morgoth thing expresses the fact that there's nothing else you have to do - it's up to individual choice. IMHO successful design is providing interesting choices.

[Orillian]

Originally Posted by Donald Jonker

Really? I always find things that can be useful to bring along. ?phase ?WOR !speed !CCW ?TelLevel ?recharging _telSelf -telOther (wand and rod), -STM, _mapping, _dTreasure, _dEvil, arrows, &c... if you're a warrior. If you're not, you'll fill up with spell books. Those are basics, some of which aren't strict necessities, but all of which are useful. Then there are extras like food, oil, !hero and ?blessing which are useful, _destruction.. the list goes on. There's always a ton of stuff to fill up on and make good use of, and increase your survivability.

There is indeed a ton of stuff to fill up on, so many options, but in my experience taking along to many "options" tends to cloud ones judgment. I tend to build my kit around what I've found, not so much around what I hope to find, vary my attack and use what I got! Kinda like a wilderness survival training type idea, use whats there.

Originally Posted by Donald Jonker

An admirable philosophy. I don't statscum either.. or comb levels for items. That's not what I was referring to re: inventory management. You seem to not sell anything at all, and I'm hoping that the no-selling in eband will make it into vanilla as an option so it will be more viable. And I thought you were a man of principle. Shame!

I do sell but only for example if I need a few bucks more to get the item I need, I dislike making countless loot runs to the stores as it reduces the excitement level of the game for me! I would not be happy with a non-selling option per see as I do use the feature, but only when in need. As for my comment about sticking around a lvl, if I go to a lvl and find it difficult I will not advance the next lvl till I've gain as much as I can from the first one, if I've gone down a lvl and almost died and find myself up a lvl I"ll hang out there to heal and regroup, but the constant need to go up and down stair looking for lvl feeling or loot by the stairs does not appeal to me! :P

Originally Posted by Donald Jonker

I don't see how. I'm not even entirely sure of what you're suggesting. Compel people to not scum? I've said it before, but their crime provides its own punishment. Make more inventory slots? Sure, why not. I think it might be better for different items (e.g. wands) to be more varied and more useful.. But whoever said inventory management was a bad thing? Games are all about interesting trade-offs, and there you have one ultimate mechanic for generating them.

Sorry here I was referencing an idea I tossed out about a month ago, this was before I"d spent time in 3.1.x and found the slower drop rates to improve upon the cluttered inventory I experienced in previous versions. may not have been the best reference.

Originally Posted by Donald Jonker

Again, is this a bad thing? I certainly didn't intend it that way. Do we fault diablo for being a game about finding shit? Angband's about finding items, cool items, and figuring out interesting ways to combine them and use them. There are fun ways to find them and lame ways to find them. IMO, diving is a fun way.

I guess the finding shit reference just makes me feel like were is the fun in that, I'd rather experience the effort in getting to the depths, and not worry about the finding so much.

Originally Posted by Donald Jonker

By definition, that's exactly what you *don't* need.
I think I see what you're saying, though.. something about atmosphere. I don't see why anything has to be useless in order to generate atmosphere. If you want background pictures, be my guest, but if you want to add shards of pottery to the floor, please give me the option to squelch them before I even bother rolling up a character. Play with tiles, or something... Do you like Nethack's clutter? I rather prefer the ability to tread over all Angband's loot and have it effortlessly sorted for me, instead of spending mind-dulling hours sorting through it all myself. I'll go out on a limb and say you're in a vanishing minority in desiring more junk to be added to the game.

for one graphics while nice and pretty and good for bringing new people in are not what I want personally, I'm talking about the fact that when I come down a staircase and find a broken piece of armor it lends atmosphere to the game. That part of my brain that's playing out whats going on is visualizing a pile of rusty mail on the floor, maybe even with the remnants of the last hero or creature to wear it still inside. What I see lately is a VAST open dungeon lvl with lots of well empty space, sure the walls have nice veins of quarts and such, but the floors of these dungeons are clean and antiseptic like the floors in a hospital ward, I get excited when I find a special room, one with pillars or alcoves, as it brings a much needed sense of uniqueness to the environment. But it's not enough! I would even be happy if useless items were NOT able to be picked up. it would provide flavor without getting into "your" inventory. Squelching is another example, squelch whatever you want, but it should still be found on the floor, squelching should be the domain of the auto pickup, not the emptying of the dungeon of all things not for your character class.

On a side note I saw the other day an interesting library for adding many unique features including vibrant color into roguelike games, most of which are beyond angband, but some of which could really improve the overall look of the game, that said I understand it's lack of universal portability, or its BSD licence would deter way to many from looking at it. But take from it some of the ideas, and you could do a lot.

Originally Posted by Donald Jonker

Options are overrated. A well-considered and balanced experience largely makes them unnecessary (and yes, I'm aware I advocated an option earlier in the post but in general it stands)

While I do agree on some level, arbitrarily removing or disregarding of options that ARE balanced, simply because they are not as often used is not always the best option either. And balance in Angband gets broken in some form or fashion with every new release. And you dare call my principals to question! :P

Originally Posted by Pete Mack

I'm not sure what you mean by "changed to" here. The game has always included those elements, to some degree or other. In all strategies I've read, there's some involvement of the underpants gnomes.

I'm referencing more the attitude of the words not so much the implied meaning, if the game is becoming more about finding shit, whats that say about the gameplay. See above for a bit more.

Originally Posted by buzzkill

Angband has a few angles, IM being one of them. I'd say an important one, which is why it is so often discussed.

It is important yes, but it's a part that should not become the primary focus of the game. And spending all our time on squelching or trying to balance inventory slots by forcing certain classes to keep certain items in their inventory, takes away from the game.

Originally Posted by buzzkill

Quite frankly, once my character reaches the later game, and the choice of really, really nice equipment becomes great (CL30+), I start to lose interest. I guess the equipment decisions become more work than the game is fun. Hopefully, It's something I'll overcome, eventually.

Does that not bother you? Why should "YOU" and "I" be forced to overcome the drudgery of late game kit overload? That's one of the main reasons I don't even use the resistances tables or any of that stuff when I play, spending 3 hours trying to find what combination of items will maximize my stats or resistances get tedious and boring, especially since it takes so long to move things around so I can SEE what those differences are. Like you said the end game gets very exciting with all the cool artifacts you can get your hands on, but to me the over abundance of artifacts and the over abundance of required resistances and such take away from the game, a restructuring to reduce...

a) the need for so many artifacts .

b) so many things to resist (aka worry about) would improve the endgame.

Originally Posted by buzzkill

Agreed. In the early game things are definitely sparse. Later, the clutter is overwhelming. If only there were some equilibrium.

it's not so much clutter as the game tries to play catchup for all those lvls before it that had nothing! :P Then you have to many things you want to pick up and no room for any of it. But see my reply above to Donald for more about the sparseness I feel when I'm in the dungeon.

Originally Posted by buzzkill

I like it, though it smells a little of D&D, not that there's anything wrong with that. I mean, we are still rolling 1d20's on PC's that GG couldn't contemplate.

Everything seems a little D&D or Tolkish. :P But it simplifies the game without taking away the flavor, one place to go for spells, one book with all your available options. it's little things like that that improve the game from an interface perspective. If my skills with programming were any good I'd have taken a crack at the UI a long time ago, but alas I can't, so I pout and hope someone with more programming skills will one day join me in the fight to modernize the interface. NO not add graphics, just change the focus of the interface to improve gameplay and usability. Ya I know then it's not Angband! :P

Originally Posted by Nick

Angband is a game of many possibilities. The whole buy lantern, kill Morgoth thing expresses the fact that there's nothing else you have to do - it's up to individual choice. IMHO successful design is providing interesting choices.

I agree, I just feel at times the focus is about taking options away lately, stuff like removal of the auto-roller, the nerfing of mining, or all the squelch options that keep getting added etc....whats going back in to replace these?

I know Angband has to be the base by which all variants are made, but do we have to remove so much of what it was so that everyone picks the variant that best suits their needs, and not the Vanilla game any more?

Wow, that all said, I like many of the changes in the current builds of the game, and I have nothing but praise for Takkaria and all those who have been so active with the current iterations.

[Donald Jonker]

Originally Posted by Orillian

Does that not bother you? Why should "YOU" and "I" be forced to overcome the drudgery of late game kit overload? That's one of the main reasons I don't even use the resistances tables or any of that stuff when I play,
[snip]
to me the over abundance of artifacts and the over abundance of required resistances and such take away from the game
it's not so much clutter as the game tries to play catchup for all those lvls before it that had nothing! :P Then you have to many things you want to pick up and no room for any of it.

While I don't feel that the endgame is prohibitively more cluttered than the earlier stages, I think I'm on board with the idea that the game is probably too long, and the number of resistances is a bit much. I'm not sure off the top of the head which I'd cut.. Hold Life could probably be absorbed into Nether, disenchantment into chaos. And you could always nerf certain types of attacks and then make them unresistible. The number of artifacts doesn't really bother me, though. You can always just sell them... I think the anxiety a lot of people feel about getting rid of artifacts is sort of a sign that that portion of the game's ambiance is working.

I agree, I just feel at times the focus is about taking options away lately, stuff like removal of the auto-roller, the nerfing of mining, or all the squelch options that keep getting added etc....whats going back in to replace these?

Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.

Re: atmosphere - have you tried the new sound collection? A brilliant example of something both useful and productive of atmosphere.

[takkaria]

I have to admit to being a bit baffled by some of your comments...

Originally Posted by Orillian

If my skills with programming were any good I'd have taken a crack at the UI a long time ago, but alas I can't, so I pout and hope someone with more programming skills will one day join me in the fight to modernize the interface. NO not add graphics, just change the focus of the interface to improve gameplay and usability. Ya I know then it's not Angband! :P

I'd like to think I'm already changing the focus of the interface to improve usability--go play 3.0.6, which is where the game was before I took over, and notice all the little tweaks I've been making. If you have more ideas for improving the UI, please suggest them, but I think it's a little unfair to imply that I haven't been spending much time on improving the UI.

I agree, I just feel at times the focus is about taking options away lately, stuff like removal of the auto-roller, the nerfing of mining, or all the squelch options that keep getting added etc....whats going back in to replace these?

I have removed a hell of a lot of options. Again, please go back to 3.0.6 and try to navigate the options menu-- I think you'll find I've changed things mostly for the better. Also, I haven't nerfed mining and I'm removing the autoroller because having three different methods to create a character is downright crazy, especially for new players.

I honestly don't understand what you mean when you include "squelch" in the list of "taking options away", either.

I know Angband has to be the base by which all variants are made, but do we have to remove so much of what it was so that everyone picks the variant that best suits their needs, and not the Vanilla game any more?

As far as I can tell, more people have been playing V since I took over than before, mostly because of the UI improvements and the increased fun-ness. V is competitive with variants again, which wasn't really the case before...

[Malak Darkhunter]

I like Angband where it is today, there have been alot of improvements that I like. That being said I'll put my two cents on a few things.
1.) Finding skeletons, broken pottery and such are useless but I always liked them in the game, it does make the brain wonder a little per say about the poor little gnome who is now a skeleton that got eaten by orcs, perhaps?

2.)Resistances, I've always thought there were too many to worry about, it becomes a headache. Fire, Frost, poison, Acid, lightning, I've always thought were enough and relevant, when you add sound, nether, light, dark, disenchantment, shards, confusion, you better start making a list of what you need to get resistances for. How many is that, 12? I may have missed a few. I usually do okay, but it is a little over the top, the light and dark resistances I never even seen a need for.

3.) Artifacts, I love them, but usually sell most of them, here lately i've been trying to play without them, as It seems i'm not happy unless I find certain ones, the randarts help, I like that idea, it guarantees something different, having no idea what artifacts in the game helps keep it interesting.

[PowerDiver]

Originally Posted by Malak Darkhunter

2.)Resistances, I've always thought there were too many to worry about, it becomes a headache. Fire, Frost, poison, Acid, lightning, I've always thought were enough and relevant, when you add sound, nether, light, dark, disenchantment, shards, confusion, you better start making a list of what you need to get resistances for. How many is that, 12? I may have missed a few. I usually do okay, but it is a little over the top, the light and dark resistances I never even seen a need for.

If you don't want to worry about them, then don't worry about them. The real problem is the mentality of asking "what do I need to go further" rather than simply playing and making do the best you can with what you have.

The simplest improvement IMO would be to make the home unlimited, so that you don't have to guess which item you will be more likely to want to use later. Then you could pretty much live in the moment.