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Old September 5, 2018, 23:47   #11
Derakon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibarius View Post
If i understand you right you say repeatingly encountering the same rooms increases fun in playing the game? It is just the opposite for me. I consider the development going into a total wrong direction at all.

Nick might be a good coder, but he is obviously no good game developer.
Good lord dude, you're being an asshole. Dial it down by, like, an order of magnitude. I was going to give a thoughtful response to the actual substance of your argument, but I decided against it because frankly I'd rather not engage with someone who can't be polite.
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Old September 6, 2018, 00:13   #12
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I have some (largely stolen) thoughts about where replayability and fun comes from in a roguelike if we want to start a new thread with a less vague title and a more productive agenda.
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Old September 6, 2018, 02:01   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibarius View Post
If i understand you right you say repeatingly encountering the same rooms increases fun in playing the game? It is just the opposite for me. I consider the development going into a total wrong direction at all.

Nick might be a good coder, but he is obviously no good game developer.
Remember, the option is available to anyone at any time to fork Angband (at any point in its development) and create their own variant. They can even claim it's the "official" version if they like - there is no higher body which tells us which version is official. I believe I'm the current maintainer because of support from previous maintainers and the community as a whole, but when it comes down to it, that's really just my opinion. In fact, I'm just a random enthusiast with the belief that I can serve a useful purpose to the Angband community.

Similarly, anyone can make any criticism of me, or past maintainers, that they like. They should remember, though, that actions have consequences. Specific, well-argued criticisms may well lead to changes in game development. Non-specific criticism or generalised abuse are less likely to have a productive outcome.

I should add that while I think "good game developer" is not an easy thing to measure, describing me as a good coder is a massive exaggeration
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Old September 6, 2018, 02:18   #14
Pete Mack
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How about an "immensely improved coder?" You took the early engineering improvements to Angband and ran with them. The game is much more solid as a piece of software than it was in 3.0
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Old September 6, 2018, 03:26   #15
Derakon
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Good lord dude, you're being an asshole. Dial it down by, like, an order of magnitude. I was going to give a thoughtful response to the actual substance of your argument, but I decided against it because frankly I'd rather not engage with someone who can't be polite.
I'm going to explain this a bit more. When I say "you're being an asshole", the message I want you to take away is "the way you are phrasing your arguments is an active detriment to people being willing to listen to you." You will be more persuasive if you argue in a way that makes people think about the substance of your statements. As it stands we're looking at the "flavor" of the statements and discounting them based solely on that.

Put another way, even a skillfully-cooked meal will be refused if it tastes bad.
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Old September 6, 2018, 05:12   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip View Post
I have some (largely stolen) thoughts about where replayability and fun comes from in a roguelike if we want to start a new thread with a less vague title and a more productive agenda.
I for one am interested in hearing your thoughs.
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Old September 6, 2018, 14:26   #17
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I'd be interested too. If noone else starts said thread I might in a few days. Regarding interesting rooms my current setup in my own version is:

1. Boring levels with no interesting rooms
2. Mostly boring levels with occasional interesting rooms
3. Normal angband levels

Of the 3 I'm enjoying 2 the most. They really stand out when they are rare. The normal levels don't have interesting rooms because interesting rooms are the norm or close enough too. I do however agree with Gwarl, the more room templates feeding the RNG the more likely a room you haven't seen pops up.

Last edited by wobbly; September 6, 2018 at 14:32.
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Old September 9, 2018, 20:53   #18
SethaWetha
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Originally Posted by Gwarl View Post
3) Moria lacked prefabricated rooms and it's bland monochrome hell.
Playing over 100 hours of Moria, I can agree with this. It's just the same thing over and over. Don't get me wrong it was still fun, but vaults in Angband were the right way to go.
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Old September 11, 2018, 01:55   #19
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re: asshole

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Good lord dude, you're being an asshole. Dial it down by, like, an order of magnitude. I was going to give a thoughtful response to the actual substance of your argument, but I decided against it because frankly I'd rather not engage with someone who can't be polite.
If someone, like you, uses the phrase 'asshole' i personally consider that person obviously unable to handle criticism (which by the way was not directed to you). So do you think Nick cannot write for himself, or what reason motivates you to response to comments in that way?

Just because someone spends free time on something does not make that action justified from any possible point of view.

The essence of what i wrote is basically:
(1) I have a certain preference how the game should play so that i can enjoy it.
(2) The upcoming changes Nick is writing about will ruin the game from my point of view.
(3) So i do not welcome those changes and point out the fact before he actually codes stuff. So at least i did what was in my power to prevent the upcoming changes.
(4) My impression is that my opinion is a minority opinion in this forum, so it looks to me like i will just have bad luck.
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Old September 11, 2018, 02:10   #20
Derakon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibarius View Post
If someone, like you, uses the phrase 'asshole' i personally consider that person obviously unable to handle criticism (which by the way was not directed to you). So do you think Nick cannot write for himself, or what reason motivates you to response to comments in that way?
I can handle criticism just fine. "[Nick] is obviously no good game developer" is not criticism; it is an insult. People who sling insults without provocation are assholes.

My motivation is that you're attacking a keystone of our community. I'd be just as mad if you started swinging a sledgehammer at the local elementary school.

Quote:
Just because someone spends free time on something does not make that action justified from any possible point of view.
Of course not. We're all writing these posts for free, for example, and at least some small percentage of them are not justified. At the same time, when someone is dedicating a significant amount of their time to doing something for free, and it is clear that they are acting in good faith, there's a higher standard to meet before you can start attacking them.

Quote:
The essence of what i wrote is basically:
(1) I have a certain preference how the game should play so that i can enjoy it.
Certainly this is quite reasonable. I daresay that everyone who enjoys the game does so for at least slightly different reasons.
Quote:
(2) The upcoming changes Nick is writing about will ruin the game from my point of view.
People have been screaming about how the game will be RUINED FOREVER by the upcoming patch since at least the 2.8 days. Don't like the changes? Stick to the old version. Whichever old version best represents the way you think the game should be, you can still play it. Or, like Nick said, grab your coding gloves and make the version that plays the way you want it to play. You can even try to convince others that you're running the new Vanilla, and if enough people agree, congrats! You're the maintainer!

Your reward is a bunch of other people getting angry at you because they don't like the job you're doing.
Quote:
(3) So i do not welcome those changes and point out the fact before he actually codes stuff. So at least i did what was in my power to prevent the upcoming changes.
You are absolutely within your rights to try to persuade Nick to take a certain path. That's why there are threads in the development forum. However, if you want Nick to actually listen to you, then it behooves you to not be a dick about it. Assume good faith and present justified arguments instead of saying "[Nick] is obviously no good game developer."

Like, seriously, has telling someone "hey, you're terrible at what you do" ever convinced them to change their mind?
Quote:
(4) My impression is that my opinion is a minority opinion in this forum, so it looks to me like i will just have bad luck.
Your luck could change if you were more polite.
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