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Old November 16, 2010, 04:46   #1
fizzix
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Monster list edits

I have a bunch of edits for the monster list that I'm going to test out shortly, but I thought some feedback/suggestions would be good. The general reasons to muck with the monster list is:

1: Some monsters need beefing up, Sauron, Gothmog, Lungorthin, Draugluin and even Morgoth
2: Weird inconsistencies in Dragon HPs*
3: Some monsters way too strong for their level: Azriel, drolem, AMHD

*Here's what I mean:
baby MH dragons have 114 hp, others have 88. MH have more
young MH dragons have 281 hp, others have 250-260. Not really a noticeable difference
mature MH have 528 hp other mature dragons have either 350 or 440
AMHDs have 1848 hp, other ancient dragons have either 880 or 630

AMHDs have 2-3 times more HP than their other counterparts. This is an unexpected difference when compared to other dragon ranks.

Anyway, here are my edit suggestions:
Increase young multi-hued HP to 350 (1.5 times green), drop to dlevel 35 from 32
Double Ancient dragons HP (and multiply xp by 1.5) Green, blue, white bronze
have 1232 hp, and red, black, gold have 1440. Drop all down 3 levels, with greens dropping further to 45.
Wyrms are fine

(monsters that are too strong)
drop AMHDs to 46 from 43.
drop drolems to 48 from 44.
drop azriel from 62 to 72
drop tarrasque from 86 to 91

(there's no reason to kill beholders, make them bags of xp)
increase beholder xp from 6000 to 9000
increase undead beholder xp from 8000 to 16000
increase beholder hive-mother xp from 17000 to 34000
increase omarax xp from 25000 to 40000

(beef up weak monsters)
DRAUGLUIN
change damage to hurt 6d8 x2 pois 6d6 x2 to hurt 8d8 x2 pois 10d6 x2. Give him IM_FIRE, since hellhounds are a common summon.

CANTORAS
change one attack from touch pois 5d5 to touch cold 8d5. remove SCARE and SLOW add MOVE_BODY

PAZUZU
change two of hit:elec 12d12 to hit:blind 12d12 and hit:confuse 12d12. Sick of him being a complete cakewalk with IM_ELEC.

LUNGORTHIN
Add IM_ELEC and IM_POIS. add BR_SHAR and BR_WALL (force) remove SCARE

GOTHMOG
Add IM_COLD and IM_POIS. Add BR_CHAO and BR_GRAV. remove SCARE.

SAURON
remove SCARE, BO_ICEE and BLIND add IM_ACID. It's time for this resistance hole to be covered up. I would consider getting rid of BA_FIRE also. Sauron's most powerful attacks are Mana storm, darkness storm and summons. Getting rid of the chaff makes him more powerful on average.

MORGOTH
add BR_NETH, BR_SOUN, BR_SHAR and BR_CHAO. time for him to breathe!
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Old November 16, 2010, 05:00   #2
Derakon
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My only complaints are making Gothmog immune to cold (balrogs are stereotypically fire-oriented) and giving Morgoth breath weapons. Morgoth's a spellcaster with a gigantic hammer, not a dragon.

That said, I'd be fine with adding gravity ball, sound ball, etc. spells that he could cast. It's mostly a thematic tweak, though spells also have more favorable damage calculations than breath weapons do since they aren't based on current HP.
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Old November 16, 2010, 05:42   #3
Timo Pietilš
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I rather don't like Morgoth breathing. He is tough enough as he is, only thing that makes him "easy" to kill is preparation everybody makes before the last fight. If you add those breaths you actually make him easier, because then he does less summoning, melee and mana storms. If you want to make him worse remove BA_NETH and/or BO_MANA and S_MONSTERS.

Nothing else than gravity hounds, aether things and Kavlax should breathe gravity, definitely not Gothmog. That makes anything that deep too dangerous to deal with. You are basically forcing people to have +30 speed before facing Gothmog with this change, and it is not enough, because summons Gothmog does and blink effect of the Gravity + stunning (unless you have sound resistance). Add hit to blind and darkness storm to his arsenal instead: balrogs are creatures of fire and shadow. Remove blindness and confuse spells. Keep the cold resistance hole, but add acid resistance.

One thing I would hate in late demons is high element breaths that don't fit the description. BR_SHARD definitely don't fit the description of Balrog. Add darkness storm to Lungorthin too, one hit to blind and remove blindness and confuse spells.

Change that hit to confuse to UN_POWER for Pazuzu. Make your wands/staves in danger.

I like those unique monsters in your list to move deeper to stay where they are now. Azriel hardly is too tough for his depth (scary, yes, but deadly?) and Tarrasque 86 to 91 does it really matter? It still kills you if you are not aware of what it can do.

Drolem is rare enough that it doesn't matter that it is where it is as long as it is 2000+' deep. It is one of those "be careful" monsters, which are spice of the game. IMO it could be more shallow, not deeper monster.
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Old November 16, 2010, 07:45   #4
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Change Morgoth's casting rate form 1_in_3 to 1_in_2, this will help.
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Old November 16, 2010, 11:42   #5
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I'm not in favor of those breath changes as well, especially not for Morgoth... Mostly what Timo said.

I've myself said it as well that monsters that are pure "avoid this crap" at the moment due to danger/reward ratio should be walking xp boosts ... dangerous ones. =P You should prolly go through the hounds xp values and change them a bit, I think some of the more dangerous hounds are not worth enough xp and some not so dangerous are, don't remember offhand which ones were off in the xp amounts.
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Old November 16, 2010, 12:00   #6
Timo Pietilš
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ewert View Post
You should prolly go through the hounds xp values and change them a bit, I think some of the more dangerous hounds are not worth enough xp and some not so dangerous are, don't remember offhand which ones were off in the xp amounts.
Multi-hued comes to mind. Those are relatively deep and have only basic4+poison breath which means you resist everything they breathe and damage is small. Maybe Air hound (poison breath) and Inertia (unlike gravity only slows you down).
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Old November 16, 2010, 16:24   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
I rather don't like Morgoth breathing. He is tough enough as he is, only thing that makes him "easy" to kill is preparation everybody makes before the last fight. If you add those breaths you actually make him easier, because then he does less summoning, melee and mana storms. If you want to make him worse remove BA_NETH and/or BO_MANA and S_MONSTERS.
See, I don't agree. These breaths, even resisted will do between 200-500 damage, which is pretty hefty. Unresisted they will do 550 a pop. Honestly, I don't like that summoning is Morgoth's best attack. I think that should be more of a Sauron thing. I meant to remove S_MONSTERS but forgot. I was debating removing BA_NETH too. I really don't want to make Morgoth just a summoner. I want him to be doing tons of damage. Increasing number of spells do not take away from melee chance either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
Nothing else than gravity hounds, aether things and Kavlax should breathe gravity, definitely not Gothmog. That makes anything that deep too dangerous to deal with. You are basically forcing people to have +30 speed before facing Gothmog with this change, and it is not enough, because summons Gothmog does and blink effect of the Gravity + stunning (unless you have sound resistance). Add hit to blind and darkness storm to his arsenal instead: balrogs are creatures of fire and shadow. Remove blindness and confuse spells. Keep the cold resistance hole, but add acid resistance.
Gothmog is the 3rd most dangerous monster in the game by level. Only Sauron and Morgoth should be harder. Right now he's too easy and a joke if you have fire immunity.

Why should gravity only be attributed to those specific monsters? You say he'd be too hard with BR_GRAV and you may be right, but it's worth finding out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
One thing I would hate in late demons is high element breaths that don't fit the description. BR_SHARD definitely don't fit the description of Balrog. Add darkness storm to Lungorthin too, one hit to blind and remove blindness and confuse spells.
I wouldn't be opposed to this. Although, I don't know why shards breath doesn't fit a Balrog. The definition of a balrog is very different depending on whether you use the Silmarillian or LoTR as your source. Silmarillian balrogs probably shouldn't be breathing at all. Is it specifically Shard that's a problem, would Sound breath be better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
Change that hit to confuse to UN_POWER for Pazuzu. Make your wands/staves in danger.
I specifically did not do this for a reason. Let UN_POWER be the domain of Balrogs. I didn't necessarily want Pazuzu to be stronger, just not completely inept to a character with lightning immunity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
I like those unique monsters in your list to move deeper to stay where they are now. Azriel hardly is too tough for his depth (scary, yes, but deadly?) and Tarrasque 86 to 91 does it really matter? It still kills you if you are not aware of what it can do.
We have a fundamental disagreement on this. I still am of the opinion that monster depth should accurately reflect their level as well as possible with a greater chance of OoD monsters spawning. Azriel has killed more of my characters than any monster besides drolems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
Drolem is rare enough that it doesn't matter that it is where it is as long as it is 2000+' deep. It is one of those "be careful" monsters, which are spice of the game. IMO it could be more shallow, not deeper monster.
See the above comment. moving drolems back a bit gives a character more chances to come across a rod of detection which is the only method of drolem detection for half the classes. (classes that are likely to have low stealth to boot) It's a 'be careful' monster that is impossible to be careful of, because you can't see it. However, the main reason was to keep it a level or two deeper than AMHDs. Those had to move back because the Ancient Dragons are now twice as powerful.
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Old November 16, 2010, 17:59   #8
Timo Pietilš
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
Gothmog is the 3rd most dangerous monster in the game by level. Only Sauron and Morgoth should be harder. Right now he's too easy and a joke if you have fire immunity.

Why should gravity only be attributed to those specific monsters? You say he'd be too hard with BR_GRAV and you may be right, but it's worth finding out.
Gravity has damage cap of 200 which is around same as most unresistable elements, but with one difference, it has HP/3 not HP/6 divider, which means that as long as Gothmog has HP over 600 you get max damage from it. It hurts, slows, blinks and stuns. That's probably the most dangerous breath weapon in entire game. Time is another bad one because it can reduce stats through sustains.

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Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
I wouldn't be opposed to this. Although, I don't know why shards breath doesn't fit a Balrog. The definition of a balrog is very different depending on whether you use the Silmarillian or LoTR as your source. Silmarillian balrogs probably shouldn't be breathing at all. Is it specifically Shard that's a problem, would Sound breath be better?
Sound is even worse. It is arguable that did the Balrogs use voice at all. Neither source mention anything about breathing fire like dragons even that they are spirits of fire. They do have and use spells, which was obvious in the LoTR book (but not in the movie). If we had a monster auras then Balrogs should have fire aura, burning you when you attack them. Powerful spells, maybe even manastorms do fit the theme.

IMO for each breath we should have equally damaging spell in form of "storm". Like mana and darkness storms mlvl is the deciding factor, not HP. Something like 15*mlvl + 10d10 for basic 4 and so on. Leave breaths to dragons, hydras and hounds.
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Old November 16, 2010, 19:18   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
Gravity has damage cap of 200 which is around same as most unresistable elements, but with one difference, it has HP/3 not HP/6 divider, which means that as long as Gothmog has HP over 600 you get max damage from it. It hurts, slows, blinks and stuns. That's probably the most dangerous breath weapon in entire game. Time is another bad one because it can reduce stats through sustains.
I agree it's the most dangerous breath weapon. And frankly, Gothmog needs a dangerous breath weapon. I don't think we'll agree on that gravity is inappropriate for him. Mana storm and darkness storm are possibilities, but frankly, they're boring. Gravity at least has interesting effects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
IMO for each breath we should have equally damaging spell in form of "storm". Like mana and darkness storms mlvl is the deciding factor, not HP. Something like 15*mlvl + 10d10 for basic 4 and so on. Leave breaths to dragons, hydras and hounds.
I agree with this completely. However, I'm not content to wait until these changes exist. I'd rather use the already existing breaths in the meantime, if only as an approximation.
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Old November 16, 2010, 19:39   #10
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Angband combat is all about controlling your position with respect to your enemies. Gravity attacks send that completely out the window, which is why they're so dangerous and so limited. Only four monsters in the entire game are even capable of hitting you with a gravity attack; one of them is a rare unique, and two of them have their spell lists so polluted with other breath weapons that they're incredibly unlikely to use gravity (1 in 108 chance on any given turn for the aether vortex; 1 in 95 chance on any given turn for the aether hound). The one monster that commonly uses gravity attacks is generally accepted to be one of the most dangerous monsters in the game, and remains so well after you get outside of its native depth.

Now imagine getting hit by a gravity breath and being dropped into the middle of a horde of angry greater demons. Are you going to survive that? Hell no. Especially not with your speed reduced. Even if you get Gothmog away from his escorts, he will summon more during the fight. In the late game, even spending a single turn in LOS of a group of powerful monsters is a huge risk; giving Gothmog gravity breath basically assures that that will happen when you fight him.

In other words, Gothmog with gravity breath = avoid, not worth killing.
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